300zx club second referendum on Brexit. Are you in or out?

Corbyn the communist, Farage the fraud or Boris the buffoon? Great line up......for a firing squad.

 

I'd rather vote for an independent than place a cross next to any of their names.

 

I do frown at many of your posts Simon as i have for many years and i am sure you of mine too but Politically you are spot on my friend:thumbup1::thumbup1:

Corbyn the communist, Farage the fraud or Boris the buffoon? Great line up......for a firing squad.

 

I'd rather vote for an independent than place a cross next to any of their names.

 

I fear the most likely outcome is you will end up with Corbyn propped up by that rather nutty Swinson.

Hi Folks

 

Yes i'm still lurking! and of course still here with my soapbox.

I see that a redacted version of the operation yellowhammer document has been released.

Curiously lots of things that publicly they deny will happen and are saying that "remoaners" are spreading fear about they are actually planning for.

 

Key points being.

Food and fuel prices to rise with lower income brackets disproportionately effected.

Choice of foods available to reduce (particularly fresh)

Flow rates of goods into the country from channel ports to reduce by 40-60% from day one. With lorries taking 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 days to clear customs.

Availability issues with medical supplies, both human and veterinary, seriously impacted on our ability to control any epidemics.

Civil unrest.

Some sort of hard Irish border is inevitable.

Significant impact on financial and legal cross border services - potentially leading to more organised crime.

"Some" businesses will cease trading.

 

Further down the document and admittedly low risk is the consideration that the chemicals used to treat our tap water could become in short supply leading to areas with no safe drinking water.

 

A comment from an MP states is reads like planning for a war or natural disaster and we are doing it voluntarily.

 

Strangely its very similar to the version leaked to the Times, which the current team at number 10 claimed was written prior to Boris and down to disgruntled former ministers ( since disproved).

The big difference being the leaked version was labelled "Base case scenario" this one is labelled "Reasonable worst case planning assumptions"

 

Still don't worry at least we will have our sovereignty back!

 

Which ever way you voted can you honestly say you made an informed decision?

 

Which ever way you voted can you honestly say you made an informed decision?

 

...and here is the point in question. Nobody did, even the MPs themselves! Nobody understood the complexities of the UK's EU membership, that in itself is prevalent not only by the nonsense spun by the leave campaigners who had no credible action plan but by the mess the current administration have gotten themselves into. Trying to unravel the 40+ years of agreements and history in such a short period of time is a devil's game.

 

Offering a referendum to the general public on something like this was like asking a plumber to crochet a bed spread.

Which ever way you voted can you honestly say you made an informed decision?

 

Yes, based on the things I wanted the UK to have from leaving the EU. You may not agree with them, but they were mine alone to make.

 

Offering a referendum to the general public on something like this was like asking a plumber to crochet a bed spread.

 

Given that the next GE will almost certainly be a referendum in all but name on staying or leaving the EU will you vote?

 

Given that the next GE will almost certainly be a referendum in all but name on staying or leaving the EU will you vote?

 

Oh absolutely, I will vote for the least destructive path possible and am I informed enough? No, I never will be. Whilst that sounds hypocritical, I am not willing to take the gamble on something so extraordinary.

Yes, based on the things I wanted the UK to have from leaving the EU. You may not agree with them, but they were mine alone to make.

 

This is the problem, right here. Unfortunaly, like religion, only one set of people can be right and we end up in this mess. If people were more accomodating on both sides and actually worked together instead of hating each other we might actually have world peace one day.... :lol:

I understand that and everyone votes for the things that are important to them, but if you knew as an unintended consequence your town would have no drinking water for 2 days a week for 6 months would that have made you think differently.

 

It's the unintended consequences that cause the problems.

 

For example net migration into the UK has fallen, something which many people perceived to be a problem, and was a significant trigger to vote leave.

However the reason it's fallen is because the pound has plummeted in value and financially it's no longer attractive to come here, work and send money home.

The unintended consequence is your holidays abroad are now 20% more expensive.

 

That one's an easy one to follow, but the more you look at it the scarier it gets, and then add into the mix the current administration are trying not to tell the public what will happen whilst rushing headlong into it.

Oh absolutely, I will vote for the least destructive path possible and am I informed enough? No, I never will be. Whilst that sounds hypocritical, I am not willing to take the gamble on something so extraordinary.

 

If you are not informed enough how will you know your decision is the least destructive? There are positives and negatives to both remain and leave.

I understand that and everyone votes for the things that are important to them, but if you knew as an unintended consequence your town would have no drinking water for 2 days a week for 6 months would that have made you think differently.

 

It's the unintended consequences that cause the problems.

 

For example net migration into the UK has fallen, something which many people perceived to be a problem, and was a significant trigger to vote leave.

However the reason it's fallen is because the pound has plummeted in value and financially it's no longer attractive to come here, work and send money home.

The unintended consequence is your holidays abroad are now 20% more expensive.

 

That one's an easy one to follow, but the more you look at it the scarier it gets, and then add into the mix the current administration are trying not to tell the public what will happen whilst rushing headlong into it.

 

Couldnt agree more, I am a remainer and dislike what is happening and the ay its being done, however I am at the point now where the UK is doing 90mph and the concrete wall is impending, so just let it happen and hope my seltbelt and airbag are working. In the aftermath we might get to drive around in cars like this:

 

 

or even get back into my sailing:

 

 

There is an upside to brexit, may even live in a house like this:

 

 

Australia have released a short tv show about life after brexit to help us aclimatise too:

 

Doesn't look so silly now does it!

It's the unintended consequences that cause the problems.

 

That may be so, but how can you ever make a decision if you held back because of the fear of unintended consequences?

 

The other thing to point out here is that we haven't actually left so no one knows what will actually happen.

If you are not informed enough how will you know your decision is the least destructive? There are positives and negatives to both remain and leave.

 

Sorry, badly worded, the least 'risk'. Leaving the EU is a risk, whichever side of the table you're sat on. There are too many unknowns, too many variables and to base a decision on an unknown is a risk or rather too much of a risk for me to comfortably make any other decision, I chose to remain as that is a known as it's were we are now. Sure, business is based on risk, but that's usually on something more accurately quantifiable.

That may be so, but how can you ever make a decision if you held back because of the fear of unintended consequences?

 

The other thing to point out here is that we haven't actually left so no one knows what will actually happen.

 

I might have worded that wrong, what i mean by unintended consequences is things that happen as a direct result of you making a decision that you didn't realise would happen.

The "didn't realise" in this instance is because we weren't told, not that people in power didn't know, and i didn't make that bit clear.

 

In business or indeed life, decisions are generally made after you have learnt all that you can, or at least after you have weighed the pros and cons.

 

Any decision any sane person makes at that instant is the right decision because you have weighed all the information available.

When new information comes to light you may or may not change your mind.

 

My problem here is the information was available, but we as the public, weren't given it and were still asked to make a decision.

 

This is still going on as proved by the Yellowhammer document.

 

I'm very much with Si here, we will never have all the information to make a totally informed decision, so if we are asked to make a decision it has to be the path of least risk.

Any else is a gamble plain and simple.

 

You are correct in saying we don't know exactly what will happen, but we do know some of it.

The pound has already fallen.

Trillions has been moved by investment houses from London to Dublin

Japanese car manufacturers have pulled out of the UK

We have spent Billions of taxpayers money trying make Brexit happen and will spend Billions more - so taxes will have to go up.

 

My feeling is that in 10 years with the right political leadership we could be back to where we were economically in 2016.

But we don't have the right leadership now and the next lot lined up (Corbyn) is wrong as well.

So add 5 to 8 years to sort that out and we are looking at a 15 to 18 year period of uncertainty and possibly recession.

 

Everyone who voted did so because they wanted something in particular and I appreciate that you will very rarely change someones political view by discussion.

Something significant has to happen to change peoples minds.

 

The Government seems to think though that we are not allowed to change our minds.

How many years have to go past before we are allowed to question if the referendum result should still stand, 3,5, 10 a 100?

 

I've said it before and I stand by it - we should have a second referendum, and if the result stands, I like many remainers will bow out graciously and say I gave it a shot but democracy has voted against my personal belief.

 

My problem is though, that so much has happened and come to light that I just don't believe the public as a whole still feels the same way and I think we should find out.

The sad thing is the country is divided and our Government is falling apart. If we had exited Europe straight after the poll then we would of been fine now but its gone on to long with no direction or end game. The people are now scundered with the word Brexit and just want it to end no matter what.

If we had exited Europe straight after the poll then we would of been fine now

 

On what would you base that on?

 

I guess you mean in terms of the division and bitterness? Yes, you're probably right there! It's just a festering mess now from both sides led by an incompetent party with no viable alternatives.

Edited September 12, 20196 yr by Funkysi

Personally I think we’re at or close to 11pm on this, everything has ramped up in the last few weeks. Voices of extreme, polarised by thier choice are shouting louder because they know something is coming and they fear it’s not what they wanted. There’s a lot cold feet and a lot of nerves, that’s understandable but the vast majority of this country were not happy with how things were and Britian isn’t alone with it’s critisims and contentions with the EU. If the question was, “Do you think the EU is great and we should fully join” the result would of been far more extreme I think. Britian has always been in with concession, one foot in the door one foot out. It’s time to wait and see what happens next, the big noise has to quieten down and compromise. Without compromise, we will stay here in this expensive and damaging limbo. A deal, the deal, was available and through a lack of compromise we’ve wasted lots of time and money not taking it.

The sad thing is the country is divided and our Government is falling apart. If we had exited Europe straight after the poll then we would of been fine now but its gone on to long with no direction or end game. The people are now scundered with the word Brexit and just want it to end no matter what.

 

I rather think that democracy in this country is falling apart. As to what the remain/leave split is after 3 years, well the next GE will almost

certainly be fought on remain/leave party lines so we will see then.

An earlier point, about Japanese auto manufacturing leaving the UK. That’s not really a Brexit effect is it? Let’s be honest. Japanese car manufacturing only existed in the EU due to stipulations made by the EU, a percentage had to made in the EU market, the U.K. secured that deal. Further recent neigotionaton meant that this requirement was no longer required and so it made it practical and more profitable to move this manufacting back to the Far East in part.

Whilst I’m sure market access fear did have some relivence it’s capailist behaviour and changing EU policy that killed it off.

A deal, the deal, was available and through a lack of compromise we’ve wasted lots of time and money not taking it.

 

With respects to the WA - Parliament's MP's from all sides rejected it three times. The WA was (and still is) a dreadfull deal (even without

the implications of the never-ending backstop for the whole of the UK). The WA was pretty much dictated to the UK by Brussels and any

compromise was almost entirely on the UK's side during negotiations (if you could call them that). The WA is full of one-sided articles. This

summarizes the top 40:

 

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/the-top-40-horrors-lurking-in-the-small-print-of-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-2/

With respects to the WA - Parliament's MP's from all sides rejected it three times. The WA was (and still is) a dreadfull deal (even without

the implications of the never-ending backstop for the whole of the UK). The WA was pretty much dictated to the UK by Brussels and any

compromise was almost entirely on the UK's side during negotiations (if you could call them that). The WA is full of one-sided articles. This

summarizes the top 40:

 

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/the-top-40-horrors-lurking-in-the-small-print-of-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-2/

 

Nice little read that Andrew.

Perfect time to bring back spitting image !

 

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Did I predict this correctly or what!

 

This was back in May.

 

In the news today that spitting image is returning and has already made the new puppets.

Did I predict this correctly or what!

 

This was back in May.

 

In the news today that spitting image is returning and has already made the new puppets.

 

Do you think it’s humor will translate to today’s audiences?

Do you think it’s humor will translate to today’s audiences?

 

I personally think its way past being funny after last weeks events...Some might find the will to laugh but not here:no:

Deal done???

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/10/17/brexit-deal-latest-news-boris-johnson-eu-summit-brussels-barnier/