Since the previous thread was a bit of a mudslinging contest I would like to open a better organised discussion as it would be in my interest aswell as in the interest of many others.

 

This will mainly be a thread for dissatisfied customers with engine failure as a result, but general (but not vague) comments would also be worthwhile.

 

 

If anyone has anything to say, please include:

 

-Who the mapper in question is...

-What power you were chasing.

-What the fault was that destroyed the engine.

-Anything else meaningful to add (timescales etc.)

Alic et al,

although i appreciate the intention of the thread, please be aware that the thread could get edited, closed or removed at some point, if anything libelous appears.

 

Unless physical evidence can be provided that proves or disproves a fault from a supplied service caused a failure, then it can only be considered as an opinion and not fact.

 

Any calls for "name and shame', any '3rd party hearsay', or deliberate "in my opinion" baiting may be moderated in order to keep on the correct side of any related publishing law.

 

That being said though, the previous thread was well maintained and well argued from many directly impacted customers and suppliers, and some very honest responses posted.

Hopefully this thread will follow the same pattern.

I understand and that would be fair enough.

 

I still would think it would be useful to know about mappers around, who to avoid etc. While obviously taking posts with a grain of salt as it might be biased towards the mapper's fault, or may not reflect the mapper's work as a whole.

 

Any naming and shaming for the purpose of having a dig at a person, instead of providing useful information would not be tolerated.

 

 

Oh and we are Referring to different past threads I think. I think you are thinking of bigh's thread with Noel?? This thread is in response for Jeff's "mappers and reliability" thread where people were saying Jeff's nemesis broke my engine... where we don't know who or how the engine broke so doesn't help us.

Edited June 20, 20169 yr by Alic

This would make a lot more sense if you were seeking facts from satisfied customers. I'm well aware the written word can be misinterpreted but from where I am it looks like this thread is all about controversy.

 

Surely for there to be balance you'd ask for both good and bad? Or better still good only, as nobody that has received a poor service will recommend anyhow. So take your pick from recommendations if this thread is really about you seeking a reliable and trustworthy mapper for your car. Out of interest when will you be needing the remap? Anytime soon?

This would make a lot more sense if you were seeking facts from satisfied customers. I'm well aware the written word can be misinterpreted but from where I am it looks like this thread is all about controversy.

 

Surely for there to be balance you'd ask for both good and bad? Or better still good only, as nobody that has received a poor service will recommend anyhow. So take your pick from recommendations if this thread is really about you seeking a reliable and trustworthy mapper for your car. Out of interest when will you be needing the remap? Anytime soon?

Certainly, for example i've heard really good things about Noel, and also really bad things so I will have to think where to go carefully.

 

Anytime soon? Yes and No, for starters my car needs a map (from what ive been told), It has a blitz Access ECU which is apparently tuned for japanese race fuel and not supposed to drive on lower octane (UK fuel), and to add my car has quite a few mods which would benefit from a map. The flip side is that I will not/cannot drive the car for another year or two and I don't have the funds for engine work and maps at the moment so it will wait until i'm serious about driving it.

 

I honestly don't know if this thread will even get off the ground, some people may not want to comment in the scare of having an unpopular opinion and/or getting in an argument. It is a shame as I don't really know any mappers so I wouldn't know who to go to. I have only heard of Noel, Abbey Motorsports and Greg on here.

Edited June 20, 20169 yr by Alic

The thread is pretty transparent if you read between the lines. "Turde niz" wasn't exactly subtle.

The thread is pretty transparent if you read between the lines. "Turde niz" wasn't exactly subtle.

Fair enough, I had missed that. I just personally didn't find it that useful, so just wanted to collect people's complaints and recommendations.

No it wasn't useful or constructed it was a bunch of winge.

my car need mapping in a month or 2. and up until now i did have noel in mind since last year. then all this started it does make think how can you trust. i do think jeff was out for blood on the other thread and seen as he in the little click on here admin let it go on for this long if anyone else did that the other thread would have been stopped in the first day. i am sure you cant blame noel for every melted engine as engine issues could have done the same issues and the mapper gets blamed its a witch hunt isnt it. am sure we agree there are many that cant map but noel had a good rep on here when i joined and if you search his name on other fourms you will find him and reviews and they seem to think of him in high regard,

 

ive seen jeff dish another trader on here but i used the other trader last year and he did a good job, were a few years before i used jeff my self w witch ended in bad workmanship. at the time the club just defended him and didnt like that fact he let me down and did not like the way i posed it on here they deleted what i said rite away at the time i got a few email from other members that used jeff and was unhappy only a few weeks ago i got some parts of some one that told me about the bad work he did on his car but would not say on here as it would just get deleted.

the bottom line is lets help keep the cars going and fix them up not point who did what as many people inc my self have been in the wrong in the past move on fix the cars help with info

Edited June 20, 20169 yr by dan300zx

 

jeff was out for blood on the other thread and seen as he in the little click on here admin let it go on for this long if anyone else did that the other thread would have been stopped in the first day.

 

I used jeff my self witch ended in bad workmanship.

 

I got a few email from other members that used jeff and was unhappy

 

Only a few weeks ago i got some parts of some one that told me about the bad work he did on his car

 

 

Nothing personal eh then Danny boy ??

 

.....and as far as this click you speak off, your mistaken, there is no reason for it to be, so chill and take five mins and think about things will clear your mind.

 

 

 

No reply required sorry for the thread hijack...I am off for a swim to hot here ...

 

Jeff

Nothing personal eh then Danny boy ??

 

.....and as far as this click you speak off, your mistaken, there is no reason for it to be, so chill and take five mins and think about things will clear your mind.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]98517[/ATTACH]

 

 

No reply required sorry for the thread hijack...I am off for a swim to hot here ...

 

Jeff

 

am not having a go here jeff as you remember i even came back to buy a prop of you out of good will . all am saying is you are not perfect as am sure other traders are not to you have all made some cock ups. so lets keep the cars going and put the hand bags away if you all put all this hate into the cars and not to each other there could be more cars fixed and on the road am sure you can agree with that jeff

Guys please:offtopic:

 

Not helpful

Edited June 20, 20169 yr by Alic

For what it's worth, I always recommend fit an Emerald ECU and take it to them for mapping these days if anyone asks. In 30 odd years they have never blown a car up on the dyno yet, are extremely helpful even fixing mechanical issues if necessary and their service is 2nd to none. Also, they actually have one of the best 'tuner' dyno setups in the UK - 1200bhp 4WD MAHA with axle track. Bear in mind my day job now is writing software for OEM emissions and NVH dynos as well as transmission test rigs etc. so I've seen a lot of professional cells now.

 

In the interest of balance someone asked me to look at one of Noels maps recently and it looked very good and professionally done. Load scales were properly expanded for the application and the mapping looked like it has had time spent on it and was nice and progressive, timing figures looked sensible. Obviously I can't comment on if it was correct for the car but it was nicely done on whatever it was mapped on.

I'm getting fed up with all these threads, but agree with Alic, a formal thread is a good idea,

 

My suggestion would be a review style thread, when someone has something done: who, when, experience, result maybe...

 

As someone looking to have my zed mapped down the line, im completely lost by all this

 

I'm now at the point I'm going to try someone new for my mapping ( well not new but not mainstream for zeds) and take mine to abbey motorsports and have a link g4+ fitted. I'll write a review when that happens,

Edited June 20, 20169 yr by (adl) phoenix

I'm sure Greg at Protuner has had a fair share of disaster stories but from the limited feedback we have from this club, it appears that he takes several steps in order to ensure the likelihood is minimised.

 

When Howard originally took his car to Greg, he refused to map it due to the discovery of a small leak using a smoke machine (one that would possibly be undetectable without a smoke machine). This was rectified by the builder, Jimmer - who now owns a smoke machine!

 

Whilst this was an expensive outcome for Howard with the accommodation costs wasted etc, it was also a blow for Greg as it meant a days mapping was lost, along with the full payment for it and there is a long queue with lots of people waiting for his services. To me this further highlights the careful approach and ethos to ensure it's done safely, not cheaply. The website states all of the pre-map checks that are carried out for those who are interested to see the detail of which the inspection/checks are carried out.

 

My point is, I know that Noel does not go to such depths to ensure every possible variable is covered and therefore I would expect a higher failure rate. I also know that Noel charges a lot less than Greg (or at least he did when he was mapping on public roads) so it's understandable that the time to make these checks are not feasible. In which case it's comparable to any product or service you buy; if you go for the cheaper option, there is often a gamble involved for the quality/longevity of it. I would expect the cheaper items to have a higher returns rate than the premium equivalents. I understand that Noel has previously refused to map cars, but my impression is that is more obvious defects that halt progress.

 

Over time, large volumes of negative feedback catches up with the trader and with the cost factors involved when these things go wrong, it can leave people deeply out of pocket. It can also leave the integrity of the builder in question so my advice at this time would be to approach people such as Jimmer or Lee Dent for advice on mapping.

Edited June 20, 20169 yr by Joely P

I'm sure Greg at Protuner has had a fair share of disaster stories but from the limited feedback we have from this club, it appears that he takes several steps in order to ensure the likelihood is minimised.

 

When Howard originally took his car to Greg, he refused to map it due to the discovery of a small leak using a smoke machine (one that would possibly be undetectable without a smoke machine). This was rectified by the builder, Jimmer - who now owns a smoke machine!

 

Whilst this was an expensive outcome for Howard with the accommodation costs wasted etc, it was also a blow for Greg as it meant a days mapping was lost, along with the full payment for it and there is a long queue with lots of people waiting for his services. To me this further highlights the careful approach and ethos to ensure its done safely, not cheaply. The website states all of the pre-map checks that are carried out for those who are interested to see the detail of which the inspection/checks are carried out.

 

My point is, I know that Noel does not go to such depths to ensure every possible variable is covered and therefore I would expect a higher failure rate. I also know that Noel charges a lot less than Greg (or at least he did when he was mapping on public roads) so it's understandable that the time to make these checks are not feasible. In which case it's comparable to any product or service you buy; if you go for the cheaper option, there is often a gamble involved fir the quality/longevity of it. I would expect the cheaper items to have a higher returns rate than the premium equivalents. I understand that Noel, in the post has refused to map cars, but my impression is that is more obvious defects that halt progress.

 

Over time, large volumes of negative feedback catches up with the trader and with the cost factors involved when these things go wrong, it can leave people deeply out of pocket. It can also leave the integrity of the builder in question so my advice at this time would be to approach people such as Jimmer or Lee Dent for advice on mapping.

Thanks, I'll try and get to have a chat with Lee after Coventry since i'm up there

Watching

Watching

 

Really...:lol:

Hi Guys

In the interest of balance some positive facts about Noel.

My latest "I'm in trouble with the wife again" purchase was the purple beast.

Loads of receipts for loads of mods, but the engine ran like a bag of shite.

The original idea was to get the engine running properly to see if it was worth it then pull it to go in my shortie.

For £300 Noel drove for nearly 2 hours to get to me then spent 6 hours working on the car.

I'm not an expert at reading maps but even I could see it was massively over fuelling.

Also discovered stuff such as the rev limit set at 9200.

Noel had the list of mods to go on, but no dyno.

Car had a knackered Lambda sensor and the knock sensor wasn't working.

Noel loaded a map he had for a similar spec car (producing nearly 550bhp) then wound it down so it wouldn't eat itself.

The car is at a friends garage at the moment, Adam specialises in performance vehicles.

Butt Dyno says 400 to 450 bhp car is incredibly responsive even in its wound down state.

Both Adam and I were very impressed with Noels knowledge, ability and determination to make it run right.

I take people as I find them and have no hesitation in saying I would use Noel again.

Money well spent!

I have spoken to Jeff twice on the phone once just before he retired and once some 15 years ago on a failed attempt to buy a Zed.

Both times I was impressed with his knowledge and his friendly honest manner.

it is a shame I didn't have chance to meet him the flesh.

There you go said my bit from my experiences

Jeez there are certainly a lot going on here huh. Of course a mapper can damage an engine and if we're talking about Noel yes he does try to squeeze a lot out a standard engine. But since when has he hidden that fact? There is clearly a risk with this but you take your chances. You take your car to a mapper to map the car and this is a relatively straightforward affair dependent on the ECU and many other variables. More often the reason for failure will be due to weak or old parts within the engine. Fact of the matter is you can spend a fortune on a forged engine through a race engineer (or a significantly lesser figure with an artisan ) and this will offer a more 'predictable' result ( less likely to fail ) however still not guaranteed it's a fine balance. There is definitely a risk of detonation when mapping the car but IMO only if the mapper kills it through detonation should it be his or her fault. If the engine fails for any mechanical reason then I suspect the mapper might have advised you of the risks. Anyway why all this power? My car is particularly well set up and is almost unmanageable on the street at only 470rwhp. Can't run it at full power on the street even my Evo at 570rwhp is like riding a bucking bronco. So do what I do and my engineers build it and map it one stop shop thank you very much. PS. And still it's motorsport with zero guarantees so every time I break something I just dry my eyes and move on :)

 

PPS. The 'only' time I have used different engine builder and mapper I got a failure. While I might have an opinion it's almost impossible to point the finger 100% so choose not to. For AEM ECU I would go to Dan Turner AME. I am using Link now in the Zed and Ben Hartley Eurospec tunes that and builds it. The Evo is Syvecs and again Ben tunes that but with support from Romain Levesque

Edited June 23, 20169 yr by bobgenie
additional info

Jeez there are certainly a lot going on here huh. Of course a mapper can damage an engine and if we're talking about Noel yes he does try to squeeze a lot out a standard engine. But since when has he hidden that fact? There is clearly a risk with this but you take your chances. You take your car to a mapper to map the car and this is a relatively straightforward affair dependent on the ECU and many other variables. More often the reason for failure will be due to weak or old parts within the engine. Fact of the matter is you can spend a fortune on a forged engine through a race engineer (or a significantly lesser figure with an artisan ) and this will offer a more 'predictable' result ( less likely to fail ) however still not guaranteed it's a fine balance. There is definitely a risk of detonation when mapping the car but IMO only if the mapper kills it through detonation should it be his or her fault. If the engine fails for any mechanical reason then I suspect the mapper might have advised you of the risks. Anyway why all this power? My car is particularly well set up and is almost unmanageable on the street at only 470rwhp. Can't run it at full power on the street even my Evo at 570rwhp is like riding a bucking bronco. So do what I do and my engineers build it and map it one stop shop thank you very much. PS. And still it's motorsport with zero guarantees so every time I break something I just dry my eyes and move on :)

 

PPS. The 'only' time I have used different engine builder and mapper I got a failure. While I might have an opinion it's almost impossible to point the finger 100% so choose not to. For AEM ECU I would go to Dan Turner AME. I am using Link now in the Zed and Ben Hartley Eurospec tunes that and builds it. The Evo is Syvecs and again Ben tunes that but with support from Romain Levesque

 

This....^^:cool:

in my experience Noel did a great job of trying to sort out the over fueling on my engine after a rebuild at zedworld however he couldnt find the source of a boost leak which was pegging the boost back ..the overfuelling was caused by the generic chip fitted at zedworld which didnt work well with my set up and the masive boost leak not picked up when the engine was built at zedworld ( the leak was on the weld of the PE 1420 turbo elbow ) picked up by Jimmer after my engine failed massively due to bore wash causing very low compression on the fresh engine, Jimmer was commissioned to do a rebuild, the boost leaks fettled engine rebuilt fully with newly honed bores, wiesco pistons Saved thank christ, and the car is now pulling like a train with Noels map still in and the boost set to 17psi ( correct me if im wrong Noel ) but i think that was the final setting ...the car feels very strong now but i know to optimise it really should be mapped again ....do not ever use or attempt to use a generic chip if your engine mods are anything but exhaust and intake mods.....if your mods are for high HP then get a professional dyno map done specifically for your set up

 

Bore wash is a killer for engines , fresh or otherwise and i know a particular owner of an r33 GTR who had destructive issues with bore wash on a very expensive engine build and had to take the tuner to court to get back his money , it was eventually settled out of court

 

but it shows even well respected tuners and garages make mistakes ...im not throwing mud here, this is just my experience,