Please take the time to re-read the terms and conditions that you accept before registering on the forum.

 

It is felt that the content of the posts was incorrect and could be actionable under defamation law.

 

Therefore, if what was posted was truthful, then i would need to see documentary proof of that before i can put the thread back.

 

If you do have this evidence, then please forward to me by email so that my lawyer can determine the facts of any prospective action.

***Long post-please bear with me!***

 

Gents,

 

It appears that I have no option than to post my feelings on this matter that has now become far more emotional than it ever needed to be.

 

First off, can I say that I am not a director of this company and therefore have no final say in how it is run or how it deals with, in this case, what could have been portrayed as slander of defamation. I am simply here to try and give some answers to some questions and hopefully make things a little better for everyone. As the manager of TDI I am always keen to hear of any problems and the subject of this thread is no different. I was notified of this matter and thought I would step in to try and diffuse it before things get really out of hand. Some of you may say that this should have happened before any ‘legal’ words were mentioned but all I can say is that I don’t trawl the internet looking for matter like this and didn’t even know about this issue until a couple of days ago. The response of TDI and their lawyers to the moderators of this site is standard practice and one which does not need to be taken as aggressive behaviour. It is simply a reaction that many companies take and is now commonplace on the internet. Fortunately many matters are nearly always resolved without any legal proceedings whatsoever.

 

I would like to reply to some comments made:

 

1. I can assure you that the thread in question was not ‘set up’ by TDI. We have no known knowledge of the original poster. Admittedly, the thread was picked up by TDI surprisingly quickly but that’s what lawyers are paid for. Incidentally, someone also mentioned ‘entrapment’ which I can again assure you is not correct! We have far more pressing business than getting involved in such a lengthy, un-necessary issue.

 

2. The reaction of many members seems to be one of anger in response to hearing of ‘legal proceedings’. This is only to be expected but please note that this may be in part to the way the matter was dealt with by the moderators. This in no way infers that the moderators of this site are doing a poor job but simply that the problem may have been addressed without such a word as ‘legal’ being mentioned on list. I have the greatest respect for all moderators and the job they do but every one of them deals with things in a different way. For example, I know that the moderators of Scoobynet try to diffuse any problems with the minimum of fuss and unless you know the thread very well many people are not even aware that a company has put forward a concerned comment. If it is public, often the members, companies and moderators are all shaking hands after the issue which is usually started purely by someone who wasn’t quite sure of what the legal implications were of their post, but can often be so easily resolved by an edit or other simple apology. It would generally be financial suicide for TDI or any other company to go steaming in with court summons’ but I can appreciate that that is how it can be made to look to some members. However, please remember that it is not always possible for a representative of the company to come on and try to resolve matters. Mention ‘legal’ on any forum and you will immediately get a stern reaction but likewise companies have to protect their business. It’s a delicate balance and difficult for the lawyers and moderators to get right every time.

 

3. In reference to ‘tooleys’ question of why legal action seems to be the first option I may have explained it in my post above. It is for no other reason than lawyers getting there before people such as myself do. I would always prefer to be answering issues personally but I can’t always be there in time, or put together lengthy replies such as this before damage is done. It would help if list members asked the companies concerned to come on board to give their side of the story too! Unfortunately this hardly ever happens and the posts get twisted to a much nastier degree than it needs to be.

 

4. In response to Mike Duffy’s post of defamation being very much a hit and miss affair in the courts I totally agree. However, I also stand by my post that John Brannigan kindly pasted for me, in that if you push someone too far a company can and will take an individual to court to prove a point and make an example, especially if that individual was a prominent and vocal list member. All I was trying to say in my post was that it has happened and did anyone really want to be worrying about getting sued for everything they have got? I certainly wouldn’t. Fortunately TDI has never had to issue a court summons let alone sue anyone for anything said on the internet and hopefully we will never need to. I think it is unfair of John Brannigan to even ‘infer’ that we would do. It was certainly not intended to be read that which is why I didn’t say it outright. I have nothing to hide and if I have something to say I will say it.

 

5. I believe that someone on this forum has a long-standing issue with us regarding a clutch they bought and (I think) had fitted from here. I believe I mailed this person (I have lost the mail I sent-sorry) some months ago after reading their poor opinion of both parts and service and asked them to mail me direct with a view to resolving the issue. I had no answer back and would again ask you to mail me direct so we can actually go somewhere with this. If people won’t/don’t speak to me it will be hard to help.

 

6. With reference to ‘tooleys’ post regarding your personal opinions I have answered to each individually. I feel it is a shame you have such strong feelings having never dealt with us but again, I can’t make things better unless you air your thoughts. My response to your questions:

 

1. Yes, many forums are monitored on behalf of TDI. Many other companies have this standard procedure too now.

2. TDI are in no way trying to stop good deals or group buys! I for one was very happy with the price I paid for my Bel 550i (a group buy price) which came from Justin at Torque IC. This whole pricing scenario has been blown up by people who were upset that they can no longer buy at prices that (HKS say) they should have been paying in the first place. For example, is it fair that traders who were putting 40K a year to HKS Europe were getting little or no discount over internet traders working from their bedroom and buying say, 2 items at a time? From what I know, the pricing of HKS is now fairer than it ever has been, but undoubtably there will be a few for who it is worse. For these individuals, rather than look back on the good times and see what they managed to make while they could, it instantly turns to aggression and slagging of anyone who is bigger (and therefore on better discount) than them. Theres nothing unruly about HKS pricing. It’s now a regular tier system. The more you buy, the better your discount. Simple as that! Also remember that if you have any HKS pricing issues then speak to HKS! TDI are not part of/attached to HKS as many people think.

3. I am not sure that we are paranoid? After 15 years of trading I think we are doing OK but as with most companies, we can always do better. That’s why I am here. I wouldn’t say I am paranoid of other companies. There will always be competition. If I can’t deal with that then I’m in the wrong job.

4. As far as I know we hardly ever threaten legal action. To my knowledge I could count on one hand the amount of action we have taken in the last 5 years. Like I said though, that’s to my knowledge, and maybe you can expand on that if you know more than I.

5. I have no problem with any forum knowing about TDI. What I find depressing is seeing or hearing stories that have no factual basis. As everyone now knows, the internet can twist and turn peoples thoughts immensely. However, with some tactful voicing from TDI to the moderators issues can often be resolved with the minimum of fuss. The companies end up getting the thread edited and forum members don’t end up (possibly) going to court. Everyones happy. No doubt some posts ARE factual and that’s when things really come to light about the company but they seem to be rare these days, as most of you know if a company genuinely isn’t pulling their weight then suddenly millions of people know about it and they don’t last very long as a result.

 

6. ‘Timmy Turbos’ comment regarding data protection is an interesting one, and which I would like to address. Craig and Nico are (I believe) moderators. If, for any circumstance, a company decides to go all the way and wants to pursue a claim for slander or defamation through the courts, then it is them who will be summoned unless they give the details of the writer of the offending post. If this request is still refused then the court will ask them directly for the details. If they still refuse then the court will try them as if they were the writer themselves. Think of Craig and Nico as ‘publishers’ and it might be a bit easier to understand. At the end of the day, someone is liable, and claiming the ‘data protection act’ or ‘it’s an open forum’ unfortunately won’t work in the eyes of the court. Like I said though, it’s very rare that things ever go that far.

 

I really don’t want to fall out with any of you guys at all, and hopefully what I’ve said above might make you think a bit differently. We had a similar situation with the Supra guys years back and now we have a great Supra owner database and I often post to a Supra forum (being a supra owner-no don’t start!) and like to join in with all sorts of tech chat and stuff. These internet ‘problems’ often start out with what could be an easily resolved issue that someone wasn’t happy with (like the guy with the clutch maybe) but doesn’t ever get round to being sorted out for whatever reason. This breeds a bit of animosity and before you know it X company is the worst thing on the planet.

 

If any of you have a problem MAIL ME. Direct if necessary at Mk4soop@aol.com if you don’t want to initially go through TDI’s eyes. Whatever your issue with us, I can’t help if I don’t know.

 

Alternatively, ask me what you want on-list and I will try to respond as quick as I can. As I said, I have nothing to hide so I don’t have a problem with anything factual being public.

 

Craig and Nico, I think you do a tough job and I want to work with you guys too so if you want to call me here then do so on 0208 591 0321. Alternatively post me your phone number and I’ll call you. I hate dealing with matters like this over email.

 

Thanks to all for letting me have a say.

 

Best regards,

 

Nathan Lay

Manager

 

Torque Developments International PLC.

 

 

 

Nathan

Can you honestly say that your company has not been complaining to HKS and trying to get other dealers discount reduced?

Paul

Originally posted by paulg:

Nathan

Can you honestly say that your company has not been complaining to HKS and trying to get other dealers discount reduced?

Paul

 

Hi Paul,

 

On the contrary, I believe that TDI were actually trying to increase their own discount due to the amount of buy in. As far as I know it was HKS' decision to reduce small purchasers discount rather than increase big dealers discount which was finally put foward. Either way, I believe it was all started because it was common knowledge among all HKS dealers (we are not the only one) that several individuals were buying HKS parts at near-to dealer discounts with minimal order size. Only you as individuals can decide if this pricing scenario was fair or not. Ultimately, would you continue to buy from a company that supplied everyone with nearly the same discount whether you were doing 60K a year or 2K? You would be mad to, and HKS knew that they had to do something.

 

I know that it seems to you guys (as well as many other forums) that you got hammered but to be honest I really wouldn't say that any particular dealer is at fault for this. It was just a shake up of the whole pricing tier which to be fair should have been in place when HKS Europe was set up but never was. If it had of been then there wouldn't be any of this animosity towards HKS dealers or indeed HKS themselves. As I said on my post, some times good things just don't last forever. Try and be glad that loads of group buys went down beforehand, saving lots of people money. If people aren't happy with HKS's pricing policy then I'm afraid theres not much I can do.

 

I think things have already progressed anyway in terms of boycotting HKS by pushing Blitz and if thats what you guys want to do then fine. People power is where it's at and if it drives prices down then I don't have a problem with that! After all, I still have to buy my gear too....

 

Regards,

 

Nathan.

In response to my name getting mentioned above can I point out that, somehow, you have got me confused with someone else. The only post I have made involved the number of ball sacks Warren's hamster has.

 

Please accuse the correct person in future.

fair play to ya for getting back with a frank reply but are you saying that your price on hks goods is better than the price we were getting because you have more stock and if this is the case why when ringing for goods from you do i find the cost is on average 40-50 pounds dearer on the usual toys ie guages and the like. i'm not saying you cant make a healthy profit but i think i along with many z owners will be a little miffed when our usual dealer is now no longer able to supply goods to us because he isnt classed a big dealer. all that will happen here is people will be priced out of buying mods. why is it we are monopolised on pricing just because people think if you own a z you have pots of money i swear im ready to go out and buy a mondeo in fact you could you could own a ferrari and still get more competitive pricing

Thank you for expressing your view.

 

I would just like to make an observation. Your post has strong feelings of wanting these issues resolved without getting lawyers involved. However, you (as an organisation) have chosen to appoint individuals to monitor internet sites and respond with suggestions of legal action.

 

I find it difficult to accept your suggestion that "we were just unlucky that the lawyers found it first". If this is considered unfortunate by your organisation, I suggest you change the brief of your representatives and ask them to notify you that there is something which you may wish to deal with.

 

Reading between the lines, it would appear that your post gives a combination of personal and corporate opinions.

 

Like you, I believe that an organisation can only respond to customer (or potential customer) dissatisfaction if they know about it. For the record, I would not consider any transaction with a company who's first response to an issue is a suggestion of legal action - whether it be from the company itself or their appointed representatives.

 

Perhaps you would pass this on to the directors of the company. The damage may be done in my case but perhaps a change of policy would be beneficial to the company.

 

Notwithstanding my feelings, thanks again for taking the time to comment.

 

Dave

the photos of my blue lights on my bonnet - they were put on by computer i never spoke to no policeman and i have no greif with the hertfordshire constablary..

 

[This message has been edited by stuie.buckminster (edited 21-01-2002).]

TDi???

What the hell has this forum decended into.. look people if you want to talk about Diesels goto alt.car.smokey.shite

--

 

 

------------------

Glen

:)

Further to comments made:

 

Mike: Sorry for the mix-up. I believe it was tooley who made the original post? Either way, I think my answer will have hopefully been found by the right eyes.

 

Tooley: I do not know what price/discount you were getting on HKS parts so I don’t really know how to answer your question but I will try and make things a little clearer. With reference to our gauge price being £40 or £50 or so dearer I must admit this does sound like quite a big difference. All I can say is that, for example, the HKS suggested selling price for say an electronic EGT gauge is £240.00 excluding VAT. To lose even say £40 off that means a discount of some 17pc which to be honest is more than the HKS trade discount (15pc) for a trader who buys regularly.

 

Therefore, we would not offer you guys 17pc discount unless you got together enough of a group buy to qualify as a very good, regular trade customer. That means you also need a valid VAT number but to be honest I don’t know exactly where a club would stand as the goods would really need to be paid by a single payment. It’s a grey area I can check out if anyone is seriously interested. Please bear in mind that to qualify for 20pc discount you need to have an initial 10K buy in and you can see where I’m coming from.

 

Why wouldn’t we give you 17pc anyway? Because the 10 or so sub dealers we have, who do give us the amount of business required for such a discount would be as miffed as your ‘usual dealer’ is now. We then get 10 sub dealers on our backs shouting that Joe bloggs up the road is on virtually the same discount as them when he’s only buying say 5 exhausts a month. I don’t doubt that your ‘usual dealer’ has been hit with a reduction of discount but to be honest fairs fair here.

 

What I must stress is that I find it hard to understand why the pricing anger on this site is directed at TDI when we had no decision on what HKS should do. Notwithstanding this, we are one of 4 HKS main dealers, all of whom sell at the same price, and who all work to the same trade discount tier structure for sub-dealers. Why have none of their names been mentioned?

 

The main point to remember on this whole pricing matter is that TDI put forward a concern that we were not happy with what we were paying for their parts, in relation to the sheer quantity we were buying. HKS may well have seen this as a very real threat that we may have taken our business elseware (Blitz even) and decided that they didn’t want to lose our custom. What they did to rectify the situation (reduce small buyers discount rather than increase big buyers) was in no way under control by us. In short, everyone’s beef should be with HKS as I first said.

 

It seems quite clear that someone (probably on this forum) has been putting forward TDI as being the instigator or even the main ingredient for everyones reduction of discount. Hopefully my comments will go some way towards rectifying that but no doubt there will still be some who are sceptical. Unfortunately I can’t help that but at least please try to realise that there is always two sides to a story.

 

 

Hairsy (Dave):

 

You are entirely correct in observing that my post shows strong feelings of resolving the defamation matter without any legal help. However, your comment that states “For the record, I would not consider any transaction with a company who's first response to an issue is a suggestion of legal action - whether it be from the company itself or their appointed representatives” is all very well but when you have a business to run any defamation and/or slander must be dealt with as quickly as possible, as a single thread left on a public BBS for any longer than necessary could be costing the involved company thousands of pounds an hour. I won’t speculate here what the thread could have cost TDI but I’m sure you can see my point. I came on here because I could see that maybe some representation of the company may be beneficial. For the record, this is seen as a last resort. I can assure you that most BBS’s (Scoobynet in particular) generally always deal with matters of this nature without any interaction of the company involved. In short, going in legally is nearly always the ‘normal’ way of doing things, with actual representation being secondary. This forum seems to be of a somewhat more delicate nature than we are used to, and it’s clear that going in with a legal front wasn’t seen as the best way of doing things. However, that’s why I am now here.

 

300z: Can you PLEASE try and put me in contact with the guy (Darren is it?) reference the clutch. I fear that unless this matter is sorted out soon then it never will be. I’ve tried my best to get hold of whoever this clutch problem relates too but to date no one has come back to me.

 

Thanks to all for keeping the flaming to a minimum. I’m now not surprised of everyones initial reaction to TDI as it certainly appears that someone has been ‘putting the boot in’.

 

For the record, I have been in personal contact with Nico who came across with a very professional manner and who wants this put to bed as much as I do. The conversation was extremely amicable and hopefully will be resolved as soon as possible.

 

Best regards,

 

Nathan Lay.

 

 

my beef isnt just with tdi and never was my initial comments were maybe a bit under the belt but no worse than ive had directed at me or given back to a good few people on the forum. i know that you as a business are trying to protect your business but we as consumers are also trying to get the best deal we can and were. i will not be buying another hks product as good as they may be until they become an affordable item because i can buy 2 equivalent items of the same if not better quality from another maker. or import them from the states. this is like the uk car price fixing of last year and we shouldnt have to take it on the chin. for the last year because of the forum we have all noticed and cottoned on to the fact that we can as a group get better pricing like any other normal car buyers as it should be. if im speaking out of place here then somebody tell me so and i'll gladly step off my soap box and leave the forum all together but i am so frustrated at the fact that just as things had become accessable to most of us we are now told that we should not be allowed to buy things at the price we were getting because we dont buy in bulk we shouldnt be entitled to get a good price. lets face it a supra scooby or lancer driver can get any mod they like all for less than us so why shouldnt we be able to have the consumer buying power they have. one example of which is for the price it costs us to get to stge 3-4 in conversion you might as well leave your z as standard and buy a scooby and still have change left in your pocket and be a two car man. again i will say if im speaking out of turn somebody tell me so and i'll shut up about it

Hi Tooley,

 

Well, I’m glad your beef isn’t entirely with TDI! I really don’t think theres much more I can add to this pricing thing now because we’re getting onto the ‘HKS is expensive’ line and while I’m not employed by them I don’t feel I should be justifying their pricing.

 

All I will add is that there is no ‘price fixing’ involved to my knowledge. If a trader is getting 20pc theres no reason why he can’t sell at 15pc. If he is happy to survive on 5pc markup (don’t laugh, many internet traders have been living on just 10pc markup) then so be it, and theres nothing HKS can do about it.

 

As for finding a product that’s as good, if not better than HKS for half the price I wouldn’t entirely agree but then you may know more than I do. Importing yourself is another option and will no doubt save you money but theres risks attached that I won’t go into here. Suffice to say some people just like being able to walk into a UK store and buy off the shelf, or mail order knowing theres not a lot to go wrong. Yes, it will probably be more expensive but any dealer in the UK is being hit for import duties which you may get away with on a personal import, and these companies need to add profit margins to compensate. Whatever the outcome, it’s not really fair to say X company is overpriced if all you are comparing it to is what you could buy the product for from the US and managing to by-pass VAT and import tax duties. If a registered UK company was selling say HKS gear at way over what another HKS dealer was then yes, that would be overpricing and they would no doubt get a bit of flak as a result.

 

Important point to remember here is that no-one is forcing you to buy from anyone. If you don’t like the price a trader is offering, don’t buy it. They will soon have to change their price if they want to stay afloat. Cue the car pricing crash.

 

As it is, all 4 HKS main dealers that I know of are selling at the suggested price so wherever you go for HKS it should be pretty much the same. You may find it varies though, if a certain sub-dealer on 20pc has very little overheads and so can survive while still giving a discount.

 

I can sympathise with your comment about the fact that now your dealer has been hit on discount it may price HKS out of your price range and HKS have now just lost themselves another customer. I can’t help that though. I can understand your frustration at being able to get discounted parts then having that taken away but to be honest if it was me that set up HKS Europe I wouldn’t have let you get put in that position in the first place which purely came about from bad management of the discount structure. No-one would have been the wiser. As it is, the people are what make the prices so shout loud enough and you might just find that you get what you want. I have no doubt that at least a couple of the UK internet dealers will be upset by HKS’ recent moves and will do whatever they can to keep you guys happy.

 

It might make HKS alter their pricing policies. You never know……..

 

Best regards,

 

Nathan.

 

????? i think you have me mixed up with whomever regarding them buying a clutch or whatever form you.

 

I have baught products from TDI in the past and i have been inot your shop. And i have to say again as i said before.

Your idea of customer service and knowlege of the rpoducts you sell falls way short of aything i have yet experienced.

May i suggest you dont treat your customers like they are complete idiots cause that is exactly how i was made to feel, by whomever i dealt with when i was there.

And for that simple reason i feel i wish to no longer deal with your company and hence why i would never recommend anyone towards TDI.

That is my opinion and i feel it is a valid one.I dont feel i would need to justify making a huge attemp to continue phoneing to complain when i get phobbed of all the time as i was.

 

Originally posted by 300z:

????? i think you have me mixed up with whomever regarding them buying a clutch or whatever form you.

 

I have baught products from TDI in the past and i have been inot your shop. And i have to say again as i said before.

Your idea of customer service and knowlege of the rpoducts you sell falls way short of aything i have yet experienced.

May i suggest you dont treat your customers like they are complete idiots cause that is exactly how i was made to feel, by whomever i dealt with when i was there.

And for that simple reason i feel i wish to no longer deal with your company and hence why i would never recommend anyone towards TDI.

That is my opinion and i feel it is a valid one.I dont feel i would need to justify making a huge attemp to continue phoneing to complain when i get phobbed of all the time as i was.

 

 

300z (I am not sure of your name) I appreciate that if you have been dealt a heavy blow when visiting a supplier then you may well feel put off enough not to go back with your grieviences. Unfortunately being able to improve customer service is all about feedback and as I have tried to make you aware, all I want to do is improve it. I accept that you may still never want to use TDI again but armed with your information I might be able to make sure it doesn't happen to someone else. Any details you can give me whatsover regarding your visit (time, date, who you spoke to/description etc.) would be most appreciated. Off-list is obviously fine if you want to, as is an onlist response if no-one minds.

 

Like I said, it appears that we may be unable to rectify the situation with yourself if you do not want to, but we would be most grateful if we can at least use the information you have.

 

Best regards,

 

Nathan.

the TDI matter now settled here.

 

http://www.300zx.co.uk/forums/ubbforum/Forum1/HTML/005140.html

 

this topic now closed.