It seems to be a pretty much a top subject in the news at the moment.

 

As some of you may seen, the current government has decided not only to go against the long term agreement of a yearly pay increase that matches the rate of inflation (3%) every september, but also not back date the pay increase.

 

Most will probably guess what my reaction to this is, given my current choice of employment, but im curious to what you guys think about it all.

 

Please dont comment about the whole subject of whether police officers should be able to strike or not, which to be honest, will never happen.

 

Nick

they risk their lives day in day out, course they should at least get pay rewards accordingly, there are too many do gooders protecting the arseholes the police are meant to be taking to task which in turn risks the life of the police.

 

Get rid of all the sodding paperwork they have to do and all the stupid human rights knackers, let the police do the job they wanted to do when they signed up to the force and pay them accordingly. We would be fookin stuffed without them!!

I get kinda fed up with this constant complaints about the police being underpaid. I realise it might be unpopular but the police have one of the best employment/career lines available. My wife works as a very senior manager in the drugs field which involves her working closely with the police. Many police come to the end of their term of service and in their early forties will have a superb pension PLUS the ability to go into another job for the next twenty five years to increase that. I have over the years trained a hell of a lot of police officers both here and in the USA and the average wages (not sure if this has changed since I returned to the UK) were comparable but the benefits were far greater here than in the US and the dangers less.

 

When I worked teaching the police in the Northeast, I was regularly offered knock-off dvds, made aware of little scams and let-offs etc. Only a couple of days ago, I went into a local Kentucky and while waiting for my order saw two ARMED policemen come in for some food. Handguns at their side. They walked straight to the front of the queue without excusing themselves or any reference to anyone else. One of them shouted his order to the young guy behind the counter (who was already serving someone else) and carried on a very loud conversation about 'pulling' a young guy in a flash car. The guy was apparently quite scared at the fact they were armed. They thought this hilarious. When (a minute later) they were given their food, they didn't pay! When they put the order in the guy said that it was £12 something. The lead policeman said "Ask your boss son, we're sorted". They then walked out. By this time we also had been served. I walked out to the car got in and drove away behind the police merc. They then went into a filter lane for the left turn ignored that (without even indicating) and drove straight onto a single lane roundabout cutting up the lady who was in the right lane. They then took a left turn off the dual carriageway without bothering to indicate at all.

 

I have no axe to grind with the police, I am not a criminal of any kind but feel their job is well paid enough. Sure, other less dangerous jobs get better payment but how many can retire comfortbly at 45? Also, how often do you see police officers sacked because they can't do the job?

 

Like I said, I realise this might be unpopular and it is simply my opinion HOWEVER, I do think the Home Secretary screwed this up by not backdating the pay award as it should have been done.

I get kinda fed up with this constant complaints about the police being underpaid. I realise it might be unpopular but the police have one of the best employment/career lines available. My wife works as a very senior manager in the drugs field which involves her working closely with the police. Many police come to the end of their term of service and in their early forties will have a superb pension PLUS the ability to go into another job for the next twenty five years to increase that. I have over the years trained a hell of a lot of police officers both here and in the USA and the average wages (not sure if this has changed since I returned to the UK) were comparable but the benefits were far greater here than in the US and the dangers less.

 

When I worked teaching the police in the Northeast, I was regularly offered knock-off dvds, made aware of little scams and let-offs etc. Only a couple of days ago, I went into a local Kentucky and while waiting for my order saw two ARMED policemen come in for some food. Handguns at their side. They walked straight to the front of the queue without excusing themselves or any reference to anyone else. One of them shouted his order to the young guy behind the counter (who was already serving someone else) and carried on a very loud conversation about 'pulling' a young guy in a flash car. The guy was apparently quite scared at the fact they were armed. They thought this hilarious. When (a minute later) they were given their food, they didn't pay! When they put the order in the guy said that it was £12 something. The lead policeman said "Ask your boss son, we're sorted". They then walked out. By this time we also had been served. I walked out to the car got in and drove away behind the police merc. They then went into a filter lane for the left turn ignored that (without even indicating) and drove straight onto a single lane roundabout cutting up the lady who was in the right lane. They then took a left turn off the dual carriageway without bothering to indicate at all.

 

I have no axe to grind with the police, I am not a criminal of any kind but feel their job is well paid enough. Sure, other less dangerous jobs get better payment but how many can retire comfortbly at 45? Also, how often do you see police officers sacked because they can't do the job?

 

Like I said, I realise this might be unpopular and it is simply my opinion HOWEVER, I do think the Home Secretary screwed this up by not backdating the pay award as it should have been done.

 

 

Your opinion is your opinion, but i will pick a couple of holes in what you said. Firstly it aint possible to retire that young. To get the full pension you have to do 30 years service, so the youngest you can retire is 48. There are very few officers who joined at the age of 18 left in the police. Also the average age of a police officer now is 31 with 6 years service. In comparison to the guys who are coming to the end of their carrers, officers of the "average" wage dont get anywhere near the allowences that the guys coming to the end of their carrer get (ie houseing allowences etc). This drastically reduces the amount of benefits, and overall income of an officer who falls into the "average age" bracket. Which in short, make the average wage of officers extremely comparible to that of middle management positions in the private sector. Further to that, theres no difference between us and the forces in that when you retire you can do something else. And the whole reason the police pension is so good, is because we so much bloody money into it.

 

This country being less dangerous than the US is complete pish. The fact is we have a comparible rate percentage rate of illegal firearms in circulation in the public to the overall populus as the US does. This is not a well publised fact, but trust me its true. And what do we have do defend ourselfs with, watered down CS spray which 1 in 10 people are immune to.

 

Coppers are getting sacked all the time for corruption and incapablity, and yet again, this aint well publised as it would present a poor public image of the police.

 

What I will say about the armed coppers you saw is, they make my job very difficult in trying to show how the police and should act. As with most things its a case of the minority spoiling it for the majority.

 

Nick

i feel it may have in some cases a detremental effect on the policing quality

police are human like the rest of us and for sure might well turn a blind eye at some instances .........is it worth putting your life on the line .and bobbys have died including WPC's doing their job .........for the way the government treat the legal residents of this island ..........now if your an imigrant .....different story ....the pockets arnt deep enough cant give enough money away there .its all wrong and the problem is the silent majority ( the tax payer ) let it happen .........you all have the power to change it .vote BNP !!!

Fully agree mate, as you know im ex job, and i understand the crap you have to put up with, the police pay should reflect inflation plus some more. Why is it you have to deal with the same arseholes, who clearly dont work or never will, and when you arrest them they state "i pay your wages"

Yeah right, why dosent the government reduce these peoples benefits if they do crime and plough it back to the people who have to spend ages getting them to court. Total waste of time.

 

The job was getting harder and harder to do when i was in it, but from talking to mates who are still in, its far worse now, so why dosent the poxy government pay the people the right money for doing it then.

 

Stu

Nickz32:

No offence meant mate to be honest. But as I stated and you reiterate, it is my view and probably one of the minority. As I said, my wife works for a large addictions organisation and as you'd imagine, has tons of contact with the police. When she advertises for program managers, area managers, etc; you get lots of retired policemen applying. This has included ex-Deputy Chief Inspectors downwards. All are below 50 and all on great pensions. Pensions most of us would happily retire on without a second thought and live the life of Larry. Part of my job is teaching at a University in the Northeast of England (Teesside) and a few graduates I've known throughout their time at Uni, became policemen. One is a nice guy who will probably make a great policeman. The other a complete dolt who love power and is as right wing as they come. He failed the Cleveland constabulary test and so applied at Durham. He got in there and as soon as he finished training, transfered to Cleveland. Where he happily checked out everyone he knew on police records and told everyone about their history. The first guy was stunned at how corrupt his colleague were and refused to go out with certain people because they would deliberately target certain groups. This included regularly stopping Asian drivers of nice cars so he could make life difficult. He also told some revolting stories about police behaviour in the Red Light districts of Cleveland.

 

I realise this isn't every force or every officer but I've heard similar stories since I first started working with the police back in the early 1980's.

 

As for the differences between the UK and the US. I would have to question your sources. I worked at the University of Los Angeles for almost three years including secondments to various sectors of LAPD and CHP. Guns are way more plentiful there. There used to be a regular report available which details the number of armed attacks on police which I remember being reported, showed that the police in LA alone (which is not the most violent city in the US by far) was almost double the number in the UK. I'll try and get the details of that as soon as I can.

 

I'm not saying that we should not be paying the police a decent living wage but they certainly shouldn't be paid more than firemen, nurses and certain other essential vocations. As an ex-seviceman, I ABSOLUTELY do not believe that an armed police officer should be paid more than our forces. For all the complaints about the ability to strike, when did you last see a union for servicemen? Why should a policeman be paid more than a squaddie patrolling in Iraq or Afghanistan? But when do you see them making the same noise? If the police decide to renounce the no-strike stance, who is it that will be called in to cover the essential roles? I also realise MOST policemen would agree with equality with the services, but the question is where does it stop??

 

The police need a decent wage to attract the right people. At the moment, their wage encourages too few people of the wrong calibre meaning a lot of newer police officers do the job for the wrong reasons and the public suffer. To get the right people it would have to be a selection criteria which made it worthwhile to be a copper and stay on the right track but it certainly shouldn't go beyond the scales of the other emergency services nor the Armed services and that is the dilemma.

Have got to agree with Nick here fightgear!

 

What he is saying about the 30 year rule on pensions is correct so very few of your sub 50 applicants will be on a full pension.

 

On the last figures I saw London had overtaken new York on murders and violent robberies.

 

I have got to ask how long you have been involved in academia, because you seem to be taking anecdotal evidence and making a generalisation out of it?

 

Lastly you seem to be saying police should be paid more to attract the right people, but that they should not be paid more than other services. Are you suggesting the formation of giant union for all government services doing very different jobs under very different conditions :confused:

i think most of you are being a bit PC about all this :D :rofl:

First; let me say that like most people, I hold my view through personal experience and don't even allow my son to bad mouth the police.

 

Topless: I've been involved in academia since 1984 and took my Phd in Los Angeles over a three year period. The only anecdotal evidence I accept comes from people who have experienced it first hand and not simply heard of it. Such 'anecdotal' evidence is what social sciences are about as is most police work (witness statements???). As for making a generalisation about it; that's pretty way out. My view, as I have stated, is simply that. Maybe my experiences have been weirdly skewed by some freakish event. I certainly haven't had any negative run-in's with the police to skew them.

 

In the UK there there were less 900 reported murders last year. The UK population is generally agreed to be around 20% of the US population which would mean that, if the UK was more dangerous than the US, that figure would be 5 times more (i.e. under 5,000). In 2005, the US reported almost 17,000 murders/malevolent deaths. However, it is not about figures. The government statistics on crime simply show what they want them to show.

 

With regard to my experience of policemen retiring, I can only recite what I hear and see from job applications. Most of the people my wife comes across are ranked from Sergeant upwards and the age range is mid-late 40's to very early 50's.

 

However, my case about this isn't about coshing the police, it's about highlighting that while the police do a vital job, so do other services. According to the police performance tables, only two police forces achieve over 50% detection rates and both of those are in Wales! There is obviously something wrong somewhere.

 

As I said earlier, I believe that the police SHOULD have been given the increase and had it back dated. I also think the Home Secretary should step down over this (and other things!) as she is clearly inept BUT, I believe we should also stop making out that the police are so badly done by. They are not.

Ha Ha what crap, now just think back a few years shall we.......

Lets cast our minds back to when miners were striking and desprate to feed their kids, these blokes were put out on the streets for fighting thatchers demolision of our industries...And who was at the front line of Thatchers army battering family men with their truncheons....... yes it was your caring community police force, so stuff you, why should anyone give you sympathy, welcome to the real world that the rest of us have put up with for years......

Its my opinion that whatever anyone thinks about the police and how they percieve them as the people that spoil our fun you can not deny that 99% of these lads and ladies are there for our protection and they are on the front line against those that would kill you for a tenner. Therefore they deserve a much higher wage. As do nurses and firefighters and all those that protect and look after us. Maybe the government should spend less on housing imogrants and fighting other peoples wars then there might be enough to pay our emergency services what they deserve?

 

But thats just my opinion and who am I?

hmm we can argue about pensions and suchlike but surely the fairest way to determine what they are paid is either

 

1) privatise the whole system and let the market decide (trust me you would be paying them a LOT more if this was the case)

 

or

 

2) Let an unbiased and independent body decide.

 

 

It seems to me not many people would opt for (1). An independent and unbiased study group has recommended a fair amount so now the Government should pay them what they are owed. Simple as.

PaulG:

I have to agree there with you. I lived in Barnsley until around 1982 when the strikes were on. I VIVIDLY remember being home on leave and being in a pub called the White Hart in Barnsley town centre one Friday night. There was a massive police presence in the town as this was during the height of the strike and there had been a big parade/gathering earlier in the day outside 'Camelot' (the NUM headquarters where 'King' Arthur Scargill was based) however, this was several hours earlier. We went on the usual Barnsley pub crawl and noticed police gathering in big numbers at three different locations. The tension was very noticeable. Anyway, we were stood quite happily in the aforementioned pub when suddenly all hell broke loose. A group of guys ran through the pub from the front exit to the rear and out the back. They were quickly followed by police in charging through the pub LITERALLY hitting anyone in their way. I myself saw a girl get punched and several totally innocent drinkers get struck and some even arrested. As I think back, I believe that was when my image of the police was shattered.

Viniboy & SirMixalot:

I agree that there should be more 'fairness' with the police pay BUT, why shouldn't that be performance related? Looking at the detection rates and the amount of time it takes the police to turn up for a burglary is not a great indicator of police efficiency. I understand that bureaucracy ties them up doing unrewarding things such as paperwork but let's face it, the police these days (being so target driven) will go for an easy score. Example, the old lady who had an attempted breakin; while she was told not to worry, she admitted having an electric stun gun under her bed in case she was attacked (I believe this lady was disabled as well). The police promptly arrested her!!!

 

Fairness should rule but it should be fairness all round - how many civilians would get away with driving at well over 100 miles per hour as did a few police in well publicised cases over the past twelve months??

why should dibble get special treatment ive had years when i not even had a pay rise full stop in fact i pay out more now than i did 2 years ago everything has gone up in price yest for the last 2 years my pay has stayed the same.......its a fact of life you are not entitled to a rate of inflation pay rise where does it so you are.......get used to the real world and knuckle under like the rest of us do and stop bleating about........you will get no sympathy from the likes of me as you earn more than a lot of my lads do and they dont moan about and have just the same things to pay out for ie family house etc

as its been said, compared to other civil service jobs ie prison officers etc police officers are very well paid for the job they do, saying that if its been agreed for the payrise then it should be paid

I just checked up on the comparative pay rates for military and police personel;

A policeman gets more on starting than his military counterpart can earn without promotion regardless of time in service for the soldier. While a military Sergeant gets less than a policeman having served over 8 years. This same difference carries on up the scale from the bottom to the top with senior generals earning around 20-30k LESS than a chief constable.

 

I recognise that the police don't attempt to say there is no case for the military being paid more which is to their credit but when did we last hear about military personnel threatening to strike or withdraw labour for their poor rate of pay.

 

My case is this, the police are NOT a special case, no more than nurses, firemen, soldiers, sailors, airmen, lifeboat, coastguard, sewage workers, and many many more. How about the poor sods working throughout Christmas behind the counters in the stores? They get an absolute pittance. Hotel and restaurant staff get paid poorly as well but get paid tips, when did anyone last tip the guy behind the counter at Tesco or Curry's? How would we react if all the shop workers came out on strike now? Yet when do we hear outcry at this? Just imagine for a minute that all the shop workers just suddenly walked out on strike, the country would be crippled in a matter of minutes.

 

Some jobs are forced on people not through choice but necessity and the market dicates the value by skill factor, employee availability and desirability (shop worker/miner/sewage worker/postman/etc). Some people though choose a career by personal desire. (I want to be a teacher/policeman/nurse/pilot,etc.). Complete parity isn't possible but there should be a sliding scale which allows for desire-ability, skill, etc. Like jobs should be grouped at a scale but, sadly this wouldn't be viable as people always think 'my job is more important than his' added to by the 'yes but....' scale.

 

The police have got a superb career structure than most other people would kill (and therefore get arrested) for but (in my opinion) simply don't appreciate it.

However, my case about this isn't about coshing the police, it's about highlighting that while the police do a vital job, so do other services. According to the police performance tables, only two police forces achieve over 50% detection rates and both of those are in Wales! There is obviously something wrong somewhere.

 

The only reason the have higher crime detection figures is due to the massive persecution of motorist who stray 4mph over the speed limit. (P.S I was in the Old number 7 bar that night and it kicked off there as well) Another Tyke

 

In and ideal world all the services would be on equal pay and I agree our Squadies should be paid and cared for far better. I also agree as will most of the Police I know that too many of the wrong sort of people are attracted to the force, but I still maintain that most of them are sound.

 

The thing peole don't think about is the kind of people that police offiers are constantly in contact with and this does tend to effect the way they put themselves forward and react to people. Also most of us that have had a seriously negative experience with the police has tended to happen on a Friday or Saturday night when the worst type of Police Officer is let loose upon us. "THE SPECIAL CONSTABLE" (Coppers on the Cheap) This really does attract the worst people who can't wait to get their uniform on and get in the roudy chomping at the bit just waiting for it to kick off.

 

Howeverthe quesion was what do we think of the governments behaviour over the Police Pay deal. I think it stinks. The Jock cops have theirs. + if it is part of their conract of employment then it should be honoured for the English bobbies.

 

Its my opinion that whatever anyone thinks about the police and how they percieve them as the people that spoil our fun you can not deny that 99% of these lads and ladies are there for our protection and they are on the front line against those that would kill you for a tenner.

 

The main object of the Police and the british legal system unfortunately is to protect property and not individuals. If anyone goes about their job facing death to protect us every day then it has to be the Armed forces, but everyone of our services should be treated like heros IMO.

 

Nobody really pays much time to praise our firemen, Nurses, Doctors and espesially our armed forces. They should all be paid on a far more even scale. They should all be more accountable to the voter Via local government and not the vassle of Party Politics and Yes Nick our coppers should have had their pay back dated in exactly the same way that our Scotts brothers have had theirs.

=

My case is this, the police are NOT a special case, no more than nurses, firemen, soldiers, sailors, airmen, lifeboat, coastguard, sewage workers, and many many more. How about the poor sods working throughout Christmas behind the counters in the stores?.

 

 

THe police is different, because EVERY example of other services are ALLOWED to strike, We are NOT!

 

If they dont like theyre pay and working conditions, they can take industrial action, WE CAN NOT!

 

How many times do i have to say this!

THe police is different, because EVERY example of other services are ALLOWED to strike, We are NOT!

 

If they dont like theyre pay and working conditions, they can take industrial action, WE CAN NOT!

 

How many times do i have to say this!

but you know this fact before you join the force :confused:

THe police is different, because EVERY example of other services are ALLOWED to strike, We are NOT!

 

If they dont like theyre pay and working conditions, they can take industrial action, WE CAN NOT!

 

How many times do i have to say this!

 

Your not alone mate, prison officers are not allowed to strike either ;)

When was the last time you heard of the nurses striking? Doctors? Army? Navy? Airforce? Coastguard? Lifeboat crews? A number of organisations/companies have engaged staff in a 'no-strike' employment contract where striking is automatically seen as gross misconduct and as such, they would be sacked immediately for refusing to work. In return for signing away these and union representation rights, the employees are given better wages and working conditions.

 

Let's be totally honest here and factual..... the police are NOT there to service the public in a REAL sense. They are there to serve the government. The government set the BV (Best Value) KPI's (Key Performance Indicators) which dictate how fast certain crimes/incidents are responded to if at all. This is the reason why there has been so much outcry about response times for burglaries and why there is such an emphasis on road offences.

Your not alone mate, prison officers are not allowed to strike either ;)

 

 

Mmmm, curious. Ive got a mate who works at Feltham Young Offenders, and he told me that they could.

 

The only people who cant strike BY LAW is the police. Yeah i understand that other people would face repercussions for striking (Gross Misconduct etc) but nothing is written in law to say they cant

The police might not be able to strike by civil law but employee's agreeing to a no-strike rule are ruled by contract law and therefore capable of prosecution. As a secondary issue, who would arrest the police should they decide to strike? I heard an interview on Radio 4 not too long ago where the government said that they were accepting of the fact that the law against the police ability to strike would not hold up in European courts nor could they ever see a situation where they would prosecute a police officer taking part in an official strike action should it appear!

 

Also, should the military decide to 'strike' it would be classified as desertion and dereliction of duty and the potential would be that they could face a firing squad or military prison or dishonourable discharge.

 

I have said I believe the government should stand by their agreement with the police but my argument here is that the police always make out they are hard done by. They aren't.

 

Bearing in mind the mention of the US police earlier, I believe that a 1 year service police officer in New York is paid around the equivalent of £17k per year.