BIG PROBLEMS!

 

To give background i had a long journey in the car last night from london to derby and back. It was very wet if that makes a difference but when i went back to the car this lunchtime, a good 11 hours since the journey, it didnt start.

 

I turn the key and it gives a couple of normal turning over chugs and then CLUNK. sort of similar to when you start the car in gear but different slightly and the car wasnt in gear.

 

Tried again. CLUNK. Tried again. CLUNK.

 

Went to look under the bonnet and noticed that where i hadnt secured one side of the upper fan shroud it had obviously come into contact with the viscous fan and it had destroyed a small section and also worn the tops of the fan blades down an amount. The shroud has not been secured on one side for a few weeks and this hadnt happened previuosly even with long journeys. Perhaps extra forces from water heavy air had caused it or higher speeds.

 

Thought a shard of plastic might have been caught in one of the belts and the front so had a feel around but couldnt tell much.

 

Tried to start again and there was a CLACKING noise similar to when you put football cards in the spokes of your push bike as a kid.

 

Had another feel around and started it again. This time there was just a WUURRR from what must be the starter motor running freely. I heard fuel pump knocking too. tried again and it was just the free running WUURRING which seemed to be coming from the bottom-back of the engine.

 

I understand that keep trying to start it with a problem hasnt help but can you help me piece this together to figure out what is up????

I've had the same when the battery was beginning to fail. Charge it up, see if it solves the problem. If the battery is old then replace it, If it's not old then suspect the altenator.

 

Good luck

 

Jack

...just one other thing, make sure that the bolts holding the starter motor in place are tight.

 

Good luck

 

Jack

it sounds like a worse problem than a dodgy battery.

I found this on the service manual. But dont know what is means from there on.

This does sound like a bad battery - Charge it up as said above and try again - if it then starts you need to get a new battery as this ones had it. The clicking noise is a solenoid - your battery doesnt have enough power to crank the engine so it doesnt even try.......

it sounds like a worse problem than a dodgy battery.

I found this on the service manual. But dont know what is means from there on.

 

that flowchart is for function checking the actual starter motor assembly. you would have to remove it to do those checks, but if you engine is turning its likely not that.

 

as suggested, the battery could be flat, or some cells have shorted. after a few turns the voltage drops and the solenoid kicks out with a clunk.

 

if the engine was fine when you turned it off, its unlikely something is terminally wrong with your car.

i had this exact problem it turned out 1 of the battery terminals was just loose take them both off, put on some copper grease or vasaline and make sure when you put them back on that they are all the way on and tight otherwise it'll just happen again

i had the wuuuring part mate. tried to sart my car and there was a clunk and just wurring. turned out the mounting bracket holding the starter motor had snapped and the motor was just spinning freely. you should be able to see the starter motor so i'd try to see that its attached properly

thanks for the help

 

today was the first opportunity to have a look at the car and i was suprised to see that the starter motor was hanging loose with one of the 14" bolts loose and the other still attached to the bracket that had clean broken away from the rest of the unit!

 

Have never inspected the unit before so i dont know if one of the bolts had always been loose and eventually the vibrations caused the bracket to break or what.

 

I am shocked that steel unit had broken so i am concerned it is turning against a resistance causing it to snap with the crank or engine mechanics ceased or stiff. I guess i will find out when the starter is back on but i am wondering whether people think i should be worried or the snap was just caused by the looseness of one of the bolts???

thanks for the help

 

today was the first opportunity to have a look at the car and i was suprised to see that the starter motor was hanging loose with one of the 14" bolts loose and the other still attached to the bracket that had clean broken away from the rest of the unit!

 

Have never inspected the unit before so i dont know if one of the bolts had always been loose and eventually the vibrations caused the bracket to break or what.

 

I am shocked that steel unit had broken so i am concerned it is turning against a resistance causing it to snap with the crank or engine mechanics ceased or stiff. I guess i will find out when the starter is back on but i am wondering whether people think i should be worried or the snap was just caused by the looseness of one of the bolts???

i wouldnt have thought that the starter motor would have enough torque in it to do such damage tbh... though if the bolts were already loose because of a previous 'poor' installation and the starter was forcing/snapping itself against the mount bolts then i suppose it would eventually be possible!

TAKE 2

 

i glued the backet back on the starter and refixed it which a 3 stars out of 5 PITA job without a ramp!!!

 

started it again and it was the first time when i turn the key it just goes CLUNK. It seems that the starter is turning against a heavy resistance and although it hasnt got much torque itself it wasnt able to turn against the engine and broke itself away from the mounting!!!

 

this sounds a serious problem the battery is strong as it is turning the starter fine but it seems like something in the engine has ceased!! I really dont understand it aas i said above i had just been on a long journey and was fine and when i tried to start it the following morning this happend. there is oil in the engine, the coolant looks clear and the coolant temperature levels where fine during the journey. the only out of the ordinary things that happened was that it was very very wet that night and like i have said above the fan and shroud chewed each other up where i hadnt attached the shroud properly.

 

could water have sneaked into the turning parts somehow and rapidly rusted over 12 hours with the residual heat from the engine and ceased something up. OR could parts of the fan or shroud that got shaved off flown into the engine somehow and caused this???

 

Please help because this sounds really serious

Have you looked for fault codes? Always the best place to start if you've ruled out the obvious like battery and starter motor.

 

Fault code procedure

11: crank angle sensor circuit

&

21: ignition signal circuit

 

The battery was off overnight as i didnt want to get electricuted while touching the starter motor as it was sparking alot when it was hanging off as it was shorting against the chasis.

 

So old codes should be clear (including codes that formed when the problem happened) and new codes will be from when i have just tried to start it up.

 

I have fiddled with the CAS and PTU connectors and nothing. I have previously given them all a good clean when i had an unrelated problem and couple of months ago. The PTU is series II. Would the ECU kick up these two codes as a kind of default if the car failed to start????

put a socket and ratchet on the crank pulley and at least see if the engine turns over then.

 

and 12V wont electrocute you

in fact, it makes sense you have those fault codes, as the ecu has detected a signal from the starter circuit that you have tried to crank the engine, but because the engine never turned over, it blames the CAS for not picking up the rotation, when in fact the engine wasnt turning anyway.

put a socket and ratchet on the crank pulley and at least see if the engine turns over then.

 

 

how do i do this?

 

i am 95% it wont be cranking. I sounds like the starter is trying to crank it but it is blocked or stopped. Could a cylinder or all the cylinders be full of fuel or something and it cant compress against it so cant turn? whatever it is trying to turn against feels pretty solid and that i wont budge

Seen this once before on a car that had been run in seriously wet conditions. Was caused by the ECU getting wet, shorting out the internal injector driver circuit and holding the injector open when the ignition key was on. This caused the cylinder to fill with fuel and hydrolock the engine. Pull all the spark plugs and see if the engine will then crank over. If it does then check what comes out of the spark plug hole as you crank it....

you just do exactly that. its a 22mm socket or something, just stick it on a ratchet and turn the engine so you know its not seized.

 

make sure you turn it over in the right direction (clockwise i think)

you have got it Duffman, unfortunately not before i found out myself the hard (and wet!) way. i pulled plug 1 (if that is the drivers side nearest the front) cranked the engine and a petrol geyzer came out the hole!!! took me by suprise a bit. spurred me on though as at least it was now cranking. could see a hell of a alot of fuel swilling about in the cylinder still!

 

stuck a screw driver in the cam cover to hold the throttle open to let the petrol evaporate a bit and i pulled the fuel pump fuse (in the drivers side small fuse box) put a rag over the openning and cranked it a few more times.

 

was a bit worried that i couldnt see the plug sparking though. Inspected the ptu again and saw one connector was a little loose but was probably still in contact. is the fuel pump fuse the same fuse for the rest of the engine electronics like the sparks?

 

Put the plug back in and tried to crank it a few times to dry the plugs out (fuel pump fuse still out) and it actually caught after a few splutters. paniced a bit though as the wedged screwdriver was holding the throttle open so the revs quickly rose and i saved it before it ripped itself apart by turning off. prob enough fuel in the cylinders and injectors to still ignite. took the screwdriver out and tried to turn it again with the fuse out but no luck. Have left it now with the throttle open and will go back a bit later and take the screwdriver out put the fuse back in a hopefully it will start. I will take it for a drive until it sorts itself out.

 

What i am worried about still is.

1. the spark i didnt see on the plug i pulled. i earthed against the plenum and everything but deffinetly no spark. is it because the fuel pump fuse i actually the same fuse for the spark? or have i been running on 5 or less cylinders. and how can i tell this and what can i do to fix it.

2. has this internal injector driver circuit short caused any permenant damage to me ECU or engine? is it actually the ECU that get wet and if so how the hell does that happen!?! didnt notice any dampness around it before when checking the codes.

UPDATE

 

got the car running and took it for a drive but it did not sound happy at all. Thought that was normal since the ECU had been reset and was reprogramming itself and there was probably a lot of unburnt fuel washing about in the cylinders and exhaust and the plugs were probably a bit wet still. I have reset the ECU before and had a flooded engine too so I have experienced this before but I took it for a long drive and it sounded terrible. It was all lumpy and stuttered even when going a constant speed with the cruise control. It was fine whilst decelerating and a bit better when accelerating but it was still struggling badly. It was about an 45 mins to an hours drive in total on the M4 and did not really seem to get better or worse.

 

I noticed I had a blow in the exhaust when doing the starter motor where the EGR enters as mild steel into my SS system (!!genius!!) but I am not sure whether this is new or old but don’t think it is big enough to cause the major running problems I am having.

 

What is going on? Is my ECU damaged from the problem Andy Duff mentioned or am I missing sparks on certain cylinders like I refer to above? Is there a way to check if all the cylinders are running correctly? Could my timing have been kicked out somehow? Did not move the CAS so it is pretty worrying if my belt has jumped a tooth.

 

I checked the error codes again when I got back from the drive and 11 has disappeared but still shows 21. I didn’t think the error codes got deleted unless the ECU was reset so does that mean they disappear when the problem sorts itself out. Do my problems therefore have something to do with the code 21?

 

I had no running problem before and even immediately preceeding this starting problem and I should probably also mention that when I was coming to the end of my long journey in the wet immediately before this problem occurred it had started to smell faintly petrol-y. Never noticed this before so it probably occurred during the journey.

Change your oil and filter firstly.

 

If the ECU has had water in it, it could well be damaged - hence no spark on some pots.

 

If the plug is too wet it may not spark either.

what will changing the oil do? make sure there is no water in it. If water got in the ECU it would have nothing to do with water in the oil would it?

 

should i run the engine to get to oil warm for the change or avoid running it at all even to see if the problem is sorted, reaccurred and the cylinders are full or now the plugs should be dry?

 

I have put this on another thread but incase it doesnt get seen there i will add it here too.

 

 

Ok has anyone in the london area got a std UK manual ECU they can very kindly lend me to get me out of this hole i find myself in????? Will pay travel cost and money in kindness!!!

The oil will be stuffed now because of fuel contamination and you will have a higher wear factor on your motor parts.

ok will deff change the oil then.

 

do you recommend i run the engine for a few minutes to heat the oil up and get rid of the waxy stuff or sound i not risk running the engine again with the current oil?

If you been driving it for over an hour a few more minutes wont hurt as most of the fuel will have evaporated.

Waxy stuff? Water in the oil? ...head gasket? ...cracked head?

 

Good luck

 

Jack