I have a total 180 degree disagreement with my cousin, regarding his R33 GTST Skyline

 

 

That one ^^^

 

He is doing a big rebuild on his car and has the engine out... I helped him do it... it was minus 5 and he lowered it onto my hand :-#

 

Anyway, here is the main disagreement we're having, He wants to crack open a 70'000 mile perfectly functional stock RB25 and replace internals, possibly stroking it and all sorts. Whereas I think he should leave it alone. In my opinion as I have done with my zed, he should replace everything supporting the engine, radiators, alternators, oil and fuel pumps, etc etc, and get all the life out of the original engine that he can. So that come the day it fails at 120'000 miles, he can rebuild it, supported by an awesome set of accessories and things like oil temp sensors and good experience of how to properly maintain the second engine.

 

I just feel that I have read a lot of stories where people have rebuilt engines and had them smoking withing months or years.

 

So, my questions:

 

1) In your opinion, leave a working engine sealed, or rebuild it prematurely/preemptively while it is out?

 

2) How long should a forged or rebuilt engine last, compared to OEM ones.

 

3) How long do they tend to last?

 

Thanks guys :)

I suppose it depends on what aspirations he has for the car. As you’ve mentioned that he is thinking of stroking it suggests that he’s thinking of chasing some serious power. If that’s the case then I’d suggest that he’lol probably end up pushing the engine as it is to the point of crapping itself..... in which case I’d say build it now while parts like the crank and cylinders are in good shape rather than waiting for it to pop and potentially causing irreprible damage to the crank and block.

 

As for how long they last, depends entirely on who builds it and subsequently tunes it.

He doesn't want to drive it stock for 50000 miles. Next to no one would crack open a perfectly healthy engine just to rebuild it to stock, to forge it and prep for engine upgrades on the other hand is another thing altogether.

Smoking engines after rebuild is just a bad rebuild. Think about it, an engine has to built at the start of its life and it will never smoke, a good engine builder will do an equal or better job to that.

 

How long will a forged engine last? As long as a oem engine will, but forged engines are to be thrown boost and abuse at so it won't last as long in theory.

 

That's my two cents anyway. Don't stroke the RB25 though, its a waste of money, get a superior engine.

An engine rebuild, be it forged or factory spec is only as good as the builder, and the UK sorely lacks competent engine builders (or rather it's full of people claiming to be the dogs *****cks with limited experience). There are countless stories of people paying top dollar for either a) their parts being stolen and the company going bankrupt leaving the customer with nothing, b) paying top dollar and the company taking over a year to produce a product, and c) paying top dollar, then the product shitting itself within a few thousand miles (no guarantee of course).

 

Now before people jump on the 'forged is better' bandwagon - bear in mind a factory-built stock engine with cast components tends to last a good 130,000 miles of stock boost before people then start pumping in more boost without adequate tuning, yet they can still trundle on taking abuse without appropriate air/fuel ratios for a good 10-20,000 miles before popping. That's insanely reliable.

 

Anyway in this instance I wouldn't spend the 4k+ on a tomei stroker, I'd spend less on an RB30 bottom, as the forging kits are cheap, look up RIPS. Annoyingly here you can get ripped off on RB30's, out in Aus you can pick them up for a song.

 

Regarding the RB25, it's perfectly good - not worth the hassle or expense changing to RB26 if you plan tuning it. An RB30 bottom/RB25 head and a big turbo will see more power than you could ever want.

 

Next question, it's all very well taking an engine out, how deep are your pals pockets?

That last bit is so important. It’s not just financial but time too, any project is massively consuming and can spiral out of hand, well intentioned dreams are hampered by reality. So he builds some 700hp Engine, there’s then a raft of snags. What does he really want and expect.

My cousin is an electrician, I don't know how deep his pockets are, he does OK and works additional jobs and crazy long cold hours to generate extra car funds. So he could probably put a few thousand into this, but he would be grafting very hard for the money.

 

Before he took the engine out to do rust work around the engine bay. The car hadn't been dyno'd but it was bloody fast, 350 hp-ish, certainly above stock with just a few exhaust and intake type mods with an unknown ebc and chip we think. Importantly it was a good and powerful feeling car. He is after 400-450hp, he basically wants it to feel like my Zed. I have told him and told him that a good road car is not about a big turbo and a dyno sheet. Its about bottom end and set up. I think that is what inspired the stroker kit.

 

To quote Alic "How long will a forged engine last? As long as a oem engine will"

 

I know that is the theory, it just seems like so many fail quickly, but I s'pose that's down to the builder. I think he could achieve his build stock. It's not like you get more power from forging unless you have lost compression. And there was no proof that he had and he didn't test it before pulling the engine. He aslo mentioned, GTR pistons and balancing the crank. Surely balancing the crank gets you the last 0.5% of performance when you have done everything else. Wouldn't a light flywheel do more, or it may give you a higher rev ceiling, as part of other similar mods?

Okay I'll stop you there - 400-450bhp? Stock engine, a cossie headgasket and ARP bolts. Don't change bugger all else, replace the block if you need to later down the line, 4 engines will still be cheaper than screwing around with forging.

Uprated injectors and pump, fmic, a full-on standalone ECU (haltech etc) and plump for a garret GTX gen2 turbo - not sure what trim would be best but they have made VAST improvements in spool times on these units. Their Tiny GT2860's on a Z32 can produce over 800bhp with barely any noticeable lag. That's the basic essentials.

Pain not being able ot edit posts - I forgot to mention, from my limited experience of skyline ownership cylinder 6 tends to **** up at the ringlands first - I can't recall if it's down to oil starvation, or running lean due to the intake design but that tends to be where compression goes first - other than that the engine is very decent.

And if he's an electrician he wipes his arse with £20 notes lol, don't let him fool you into thinking otherwise.

All that effort and expense for a GTS-T....

And I seem to recall that RB oil pumps seem to shit themselves with any notable increase in torque, so I’d certainly research around that and find an suitable solution.

 

Re balancing, I’m sure there probably is a gain due to parasitic losses, but to PROPERLY balance an engine it has to be completely stripped and each part of the rotating assembly to be weighed, equalised and then dynamically balanced (including crank pulley, flywheel and clutch pressure plate)

He works very hard but I don't think it's fair to say he wipes his arse with 20s mate. He earns his cash and supports his home and family first, himself and his car second.

 

But I appreciate the advise and agree that he does not need to go that big to get the power he wants. And to be clear when I said "bottom end" I meant torque and area under the graph. Not the crank.

 

Si, it's a nice car his GTST. GTR's are stupid money and he wanted the RWD rather than the 4WD. It isn't a beaten up drift missile like a lot of S cars are.

 

NickZ, that's what I thought, it is Formula one, cosworth stuff to do to an engine.

The r33 GTST is nearly as quick as an R32 GTR to be fair. There's really not that much in it Si, I've owned one and driven the other - saying that a modified later GTR is a beast to be reckoned with, but so is the expense. The repair costs for the transmission side are insane compared to the GTST.

 

Besides any 4wd is, as we know, is not a real drivers car - Much like a wife, if it wont kill you by looking at wrong, it's not half as worthwhile ;-)

 

Haha mate it's a tradey joke, everyone knows the sparky's rock up to site in Aston's. :-D

Don't get me wrong- if I could afford and maintain an R33 GTR I'd have it in a heartbeat over the GTST, but it's no longer as practical an option as it used to be (another reason to hate the yanks) - what's the price now, about 15-16k entry?

:) Cheers S13, I thought you were joking but had to stand by my mate :thumbup1:

 

The GTST in my opinion, which is the opinion of a man used to cheaper and older cars, is a good car. His has a reassuring build quality, the doors thud shut, I found it quite comfortable, it drives quite well other than the slightly numb steering which he is working on. It's fast and exciting in the way it revs out that high.

 

Annoyingly it makes bloody good use its 350ish hp with that high rev limit and better gearbox than mine.

Funky Si, I know it'll be different to mine, but I genuinely am interested to hear you review of GTSTs :)

 

NickZ, that's what I thought, it is Formula one, cosworth stuff to do to an engine.

 

Which is precisely why I had that level of balancing done when I built my engine :P

Funky Si, I know it'll be different to mine, but I genuinely am interested to hear you review of GTSTs :)

 

My review on spending big bucks on a GTS-T........I'd sooner have a GTR (the only Skyline to have Imo).

Is that based on the badge or the performance, come on Si I honestly want to hear your genuine review, based on mechanical and structural facts. I've unfortunately never had first hand experience of a GTR. I have had of GTSTs, one of each. His is a 33 and feels a lot more fun and 'zedlike' than the totally dull R34 I was in and far more modern and capable than the R32 I was in.

 

He can't afford a GTR and neither could I. I appreciate that the 3 old models of GTR were awesome vehicles but are they any better than an Evo? They are no more powerful, they have the same clever 4WD stuff. He had a mildly tuned Evo V and didn't like the 4WD handling characteristics.

 

If he won the lottery, he'd probably have a GTR. But I think the car he is building himself from a GTST start point will be comparable in performance and will suit him better.

He can't afford a GTR yet he can afford to tear down and rebuild his clean low mileage GTS-T?

 

A pro-GTR argument would appear obvious wouldn't it? ;)

......my original comment is more of a facetious comment. I'm not a lover of the GTS-T, in particular the R33 version, but that's based on a purely subjective view that they're bland, an also-ran and a favourite of the woefully tiresome drift scene.

 

I don't doubt their mechanicals, but as a unit, they don't excite me whatsoever.

 

:)

He is doing it all himself spread out over 2 years so far.

 

The car cost him about £6000 and was as it turned out hiding rust. So in his absolutely commendable journey down to bare metal and back in his small garage he has removed the engine. Having gone through all that work, he has a "while it's out" attitude, coupled to a "do the job once and do it thoroughly" mindset.

 

Here is my anti-GTR argument, which to me is obvious. They are 10% better and 300% more expensive. Having spent £6000 to join the GTR club and then the rest on ATESSA 100ml of displacement and a front bumper. You have a car, that is still an old nissan, desperately wanting to rust away given half a chance, with the ever present threat that it will catastrophically shit itself, somewhere after the next gear change, but is a GTR and so all the parts are priced as such.

 

But, I may be wrong, I'd like you to say, for these reasons Tom, they are not simply 10% better GTSTs, the next box up on Nissan's option list, with clever 4wd and a slightly stronger engine.

 

My Zed must be measurabley better than a stock R33 GTR, so his GTST can be made to be, lighter, faster, grippier as well. Which is not the ultimate measure of a vehicle, but in these cars that's 90% of their appeal. Pure performance in all of its guises.

 

Obviously a GTR can be built to be measurably better than my zed, but then so can anything.

 

My point is, all of these cars are individual cars, taken on a path beyond and away from OEM spec. Adam has saved on paying to own a GTR, in order to build something to a performance level he desires.

Si, I totally get that :)

 

A stock R33 GTST is an ugly car. That's why Adam's has a bodykit he likes. Thankfully his hasn't been drifted, but that is another scene influencing those of us after, as I put it "a supercar", meaning, go to jail fast and useable every day, primarily on the road.

 

It's mostly the S world who pay the price, the drift tax. I don't know how the GTST price has beed affected.

 

His goal is inspired by my zed. Bloody fast, useable everyday, he prefers the shape of his to mine. But then again, he thinks an EVO 5 is an attractive car!

 

I like ferraris, astons, porches and zeds, he likes stuff designed with rulers and set squares! Bloody, GTRs, Evos and spikey lambos.

Edited December 13, 20178 yr by tomfromthenorth

Obviously a GTR can be built to be measurably better than my zed, but then so can anything.

 

Don't underestimate these engines

I wasn't meaning ultimately Alic, that would be a can of worms! :lol: I just meant in the 400-500hp real world.

 

I like a good meaty car discussion lads :) :thumbup1:

My experience in GTST’s is reasonably limited, I’ve been out in a few and driven a few at the power level your friend is looking at, and I’ve always found them quite peaky, all top end not much low or mid range which makes attempting to driving them quickly in damp and wet conditions a bit of a handful and ultimately slower than the Z... they seem to lack that tractability in their power delivery the the Z has in spades.

 

There may be a ways to improve that with some of the new developments in Turbo technology with thing like the second hen GTX turbos.