EU: Leave or Remain

[TheRealNips]

Without wanting to start an argument here, Im just curious as to what people want to vote or if they haven't made up their minds.

[Mondo]

I simply can't understand how we (as a country) can have our courts' and government's decisions overridden by anyone from outside this country...!

 

Surely we elect our officials so that they can govern us and this country themselves? In the process doing what they believe in best in the peoples' and the country's interests? Yes...?

 

If that's the case, then why are the government's hands completely tied when it comes to things like deporting idiots like Abu Hamza?! The man hates the West and has been incredibly vocal about that, so why would he have wanted to remain living here? Oh yeah, the cushy lifestyle on offer and the fact that it's a better life than he had in Jordan!

 

Double standards much?

 

So when Theresa May decides to send him packing based on his hatred of the West in general and the UK in particular, and on his radical propaganda, believing that that decision is in the best interests of the UK and its' citizens, the EU Court of Human Rights chime in and prevent it! And even though we've finally shipped the scumbag out, we're still supporting his rather sizeable family here!!

 

So what is the point in having our elected officials if some other EU country can completely override their decisions? If we leave the EU, we are no longer subservient to them and we are then able to actually make and enforce our own decisions (as it were).

 

That works for me!!

[Chris]

I simply can't understand how we (as a country) can have our courts' and government's decisions overridden by anyone from outside this country...!

 

Surely we elect our officials so that they can govern us and this country themselves? In the process doing what they believe in best in the peoples' and the country's interests? Yes...?

 

If that's the case, then why are the government's hands completely tied when it comes to things like deporting idiots like Abu Hamza?! The man hates the West and has been incredibly vocal about that, so why would he have wanted to remain living here? Oh yeah, the cushy lifestyle on offer and the fact that it's a better life than he had in Jordan!

 

Double standards much?

 

So when Theresa May decides to send him packing based on his hatred of the West in general and the UK in particular, and on his radical propaganda, believing that that decision is in the best interests of the UK and its' citizens, the EU Court of Human Rights chime in and prevent it! And even though we've finally shipped the scumbag out, we're still supporting his rather sizeable family here!!

 

So what is the point in having our elected officials if some other EU country can completely override their decisions? If we leave the EU, we are no longer subservient to them and we are then able to actually make and enforce our own decisions (as it were).

 

That works for me!!

 

So you're complaining that we got stopped for doing something because it would infringe upon someones human rights? So you'd rather we threw all our values away and became just like the terrorists?

 

I don't fancy becoming like the USA, who keep people in solitary confinement for 40 years and no one can question it, any time soon.

 

Besides, this issue pales in comparison to the economic arguments IMO.

[pig]

People who kill others or plan to kill hundreds of others in terrorist attacks should not be able to claim human rights!!! What about the human rights to life of the people they kill??

[Chris]

People who kill others or plan to kill hundreds of others in terrorist attacks should not be able to claim human rights!!! What about the human rights to life of the people they kill??

Well that's the point isn't it - they don't value those rights and want to get rid of them and impose their own version of the law. So you want us to fight fire with fire and abandon those rights, which they are trying to abolish, in order to get rid of them?

 

Doesn't make sense does it, we would be becoming like them in order to defeat them because we don't like them and what they stand for. And that way madness lies.

 

But anyway, this is fairly off topic

[TheRealNips]

I may have opened a can of worms here... :oops:

 

Everyone is entitled to their view and we should all respect that. If everyone thought the same, we would be in 1984! :lol:

 

I feel that although the EU is not perfect, its benefits to us as a nation are greater in number than the cons. The EU needs changes and countries should be able to govern themselves more, but its difficult as there are some many people, so many cultures, so many unique local things that each country/province/ parish has. At the end of the day, the EU is paving the way in something we as a species has never done before (coalition between cultures, people working together for the greater good), there will be teething problems as we have never done this before. I feel that it would be a shame to throw it all away because the daily mail (and other publications) can make headlines from it. Things can only change and improve by people working at it and getting involved, by leaving I feel its a cope out to everything we have achieved together.

 

Thats how I feel, you can agree or disagree, but mocking is not allowed! :lol:

[Mondo]

So you're complaining that we got stopped for doing something because it would infringe upon someones human rights? So you'd rather we threw all our values away and became just like the terrorists?

 

I don't fancy becoming like the USA, who keep people in solitary confinement for 40 years and no one can question it, any time soon.

 

Besides, this issue pales in comparison to the economic arguments IMO.

 

Hamza fled Jordan because he knew he was in a world of trouble there because of his actions. He came here but, instead of keeping his head down and respecting the UK, he continued to do exactly what he did in Jordan.

 

I can only assume that that was because he knew or at least suspected that we would have difficulty sending him back to where he came from.

 

Why should we as a nation have to put up with the scum of the world? The man came from Jordan, screwed his (and others') lives up there, then fled here when Jordanian law came a'knocking. He belonged in Jordan due to his birthright and also due to the fact that he served precisely no purpose whatsoever in the UK. He didn't work, he didn't contribute anything except bile and hatred and he played the system like a fiddle.

 

Yes, the system allowed him to play it but, without the intervention of the EU Courts, he would have been gone far sooner than he was. And that's my point: how can a court in a foreign country dictate to us? It beggars the imagination!

[TonyB]

The problem with the EU is that none of the senior people running it have been elected. They are not answerable to anyone.

 

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

[Chris]

The problem I have with the debate is there has been lots of talk about how much it costs us, but I haven't seen anything about how much is saves us.

 

Take emissions just as an example, if we left the EU are we going to have to do the research and come up with the legislation ourselves? How much would that cost? Or would we just sign up to that particular agreement, and how much would THAT cost?

 

That is just one issue, but there must be hundreds of similar cases that all add up to be significant. I am just curious as to costs involved with these, and I don't think the public (including myself!) have any idea about this side of things and how deeply ingrained the EU is in our society. It's all just headline figures and the courts etc, as we have demonstrated!

[pig]

Aren't the emissions thing under the g8 agreement rather than the eu?

[Lexx]

Can I just say that this thread is a terrible idea, and will get out of hand very quickly.

 

I just recommend everyone take some time to do their research (on places other than forums!) and then place their vote in June. If you don't know jack about the topic, then don't vote.

[Chris]

Aren't the emissions thing under the g8 agreement rather than the eu?

I don't think so, they're called Euro 1, Euro 2 etc, we're currently on Euro 6 I believe. I could be wrong, but I just chose emissions as an example

[pig]

They are the European standards there is a global agreement. This is where a lot of these debates go wrong as there are other agreements for the same thing

[Gaz 300]

Guys just vote on the poll and if you want to say something keep it to one sensible sentence or the hand of big brother watching will invade. :tank:

[dutchgold92]

I don't fancy becoming like the USA, who keep people in solitary confinement for 40 years and no one can question it, any time soon.

 

Sure, but deportation would be a completely different story.

[Pebkau]

Economically - Remain

Legal and Policy - Brussels should be able to force a Parliamentary debate but not be able to overrule the UK decision.

[pig]

Guys just vote on the poll and if you want to say something keep it to one sensible sentence or the hand of big brother watching will invade. :tank:

 

Now does your invasion come under the eu or nato? Your just confusing things even more!!:tt2:

[Sir Charles]

They are the European standards there is a global agreement. This is where a lot of these debates go wrong as there are other agreements for the same thing

 

The Germans got their own rules regarding car emissions haven't they? ;)

[groover]

There are so many things to consider that most of us are unaware of in the grand scheme of things, unfortunately we are not given the full story to the implications, only what the media dictate and push down our throats and our opinions forged from scaremongering and those who shout the loudest.

 

I agree with Lexx, do some research before forming an opinion, i fear with so much of the UK being ill informed or going along with the mass hysteria surrounding the ins and outs arguments, we could be forced into making a decision we may regret, just because of a couple of topics always in the forefront of the news to base our decisions on.

 

I would love nothing more than the UK having back control, of laws and issues which affect this country and its citizens directly, but it appears we do not have that option by remaining.

 

Whatever the outcome of the referendum, there will be no turning back on the decision and i personally feel June 23rd is too soon to make an informed opinion. Ironic i know, as we have had years to sort this out, but there are still too many unknowns. :scared:

[Stephen]

My heart says leave, I wish to vote leave get my head hasn't decided. The case to leave so far consists of, "it will be alright" that's not a plan that's a hope. I really don't know. I don't feel Cameron has the kahunas to do the job either way.

[Sir Charles]

I quite like the freedom I currently have to roam Europe to be honest and would hate that to be taken away from me. Plus I have my GF's family over to visit quite a bit and that would make it much more difficult for them.

 

I think we should remain.

[300_zedx]

What makes you think you won't be able to travel Europe as you do now if we leave.

[TheRealNips]

What makes you think you won't be able to travel Europe as you do now if we leave.

 

I assume that we would be able to travel Europe, but we would either need visas (like when you go to America or Canada, they would be available on arrival) or the UK would have to sign up to the EU Freedom of Movement Treaty like Norway and Switzerland do. However that would still allow people immigrate into this country, therefore making one of the main "leave" arguments pointless... So the way I see it, by leaving and therefore restricting immigration, on a quid pro quo the EU would restrict our immigration and tourism visitations. This also leads to another question; What about the 2.2m Brits living in the EU? Will they be forced out and back here? Will they need visas to live there? Will they be able to claim their pensions/benefits there as they do now? I really think this vote is floored as there are too many "what ifs" for regular citizens like us to think about let alone understand.

[Lexx]

Just for clarification - UK national doesn't need a visa to go to the US unless they are working. It's called the visa waver program.

As a seafarer I require a US C1/D visa. But if I'm just going on holiday I don't need anything.

[znut]

Out:yes: