Mondo Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 I'll confess, I'm a little unhappy about having my thread locked for the reason of "back door trading!" I purposely avoided any kind of serious response to any members who expressed an interest who aren't signed up for the group buy, and yet still the keys came jangling... The sole reason I didn't renew my Trader subs is because they aren't cost effective. There are forums out there with a much larger member base who offer everything that £100 would get me here, but for half that amount. I mentioned that to The Powers That Be but it couldn't be matched. So that was that. One thing I absolutely haven't attempted to do is trade via the back door and, if I'm honest, I'm a little resentful that I've been accused of it. So what I shall do, when the GB work starts, is email pictures to the relevant members so that they can update their own threads with the progress. Then I can't be accused of anything untoward. I can think of a few members who are far more guilty of back door trading, either currently or in the past, than I'd ever be. But hey ho... such if life.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz 300 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Hated doing it but its part of the not so nice side of being a Committee member when you have to put the rules of the club in front of your friends. You know I will back your work and praise it all over here and on FaceBook so I hope you dont hold it against me or the club Si. Its a joint decision that the Committee have talked about and action taken. We still uphold you as a great ambassador for the 300zx and the club but we must have the same rules for all the members and no privilege's to the few. That is what we stand by and will be judged by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iangreenfield Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Come on guys i have to agree with Si on this one all hes done is answer a few questions i feel you have been a bit heavy handed here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz 300 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Come on guys i have to agree with Si on this one all hes done is answer a few questions i feel you have been a bit heavy handed here. I stand by my first post and will fall on my sword if I am wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondo Posted February 12, 2018 Author Share Posted February 12, 2018 Hated doing it but its part of the not so nice side of being a Committee member when you have to put the rules of the club in front of your friends. You know I will back your work and praise it all over here and on FaceBook so I hope you dont hold it against me or the club Si. Its a joint decision that the Committee have talked about and action taken. We still uphold you as a great ambassador for the 300zx and the club but we must have the same rules for all the members and no privilege's to the few. That is what we stand by and will be judged by. If you look at the thread, the only response I gave to a direct question from someone who openly stated that they wanted me to do work for them was regarding Russ' embroidery. And, even then, my response was flippant and I ignored his follow-up. JoeDM was asking about dashboards and the like, but not asking me if I would personally undertake the work. Had he done that, I'd have ignored him. I get what you're saying, Gaz. But it was a very different story back in the day when Phutumsch was converting everyone's lights without even a hint of a Trader subscription on the horizon. Sorry to drag Andy into this, but he's a rather pertinent example here. I'm trying to play by the rules here now that being a Trader makes no financial sense, but surely any photos I posted of group buy work would see me "back door trading" as well? But I was given the green light to do just that. In all honesty, the only reason I posted those pictures is because I'm very conscious that I'm at least 5 months late in doing anything GB-related and I want to try and reassure people that I'm not about to do a Lee Dent and start ripping anyone off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veilside01702 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 I have to say I agree with Ian and Si........ I can't see any back door trading, just questions from members and existing customers, banter between myself and Si and pictures of a members interior. Has Si been PM'ing members for New work outside of the Group Buy already set up before his subs ran out? I am disappointed that it has been taken as something I personally cannot see..... Sorry Gary, but I just had to say something after reading the thread a few times...... I just can't see any touting for trade or offers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veilside01702 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Sorry Si........ I was joking about the 'veilside01702' instead...... didn't mean to cause any problems....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris300 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 I’m sure my opinion is of no interest to anyone but that’s not going to stop me saying this... Some members, who are traders of one sort or another, are an asset to the community they follow and support, and although these members should, if they wish, sign up to traders’ membership (if they want to actively promote their business) they should be cut a little slack when posting work relating to the forum they’re in. I mean would we lock up a mechanic for posting a How To they made on removing a front bumper if they weren’t registered traders? I hope not! Sorry to see your post locked Si, I’m sure it was going to be one of the best posts since the What did you do to your Zed today got happy slapped with tyre BS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phutumsch Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 I don't for one minute think that Simon is advertising his wares, sure his order book is plenty full enough for 2018. Also, he was a trader when the GB was initiated. As for me, i always made it clear that i never wished to be a trader, is mine different because it was just a hobby to me ? It hardly kept my head above water and i'll just correct you Simon on how you've worded your post and to be fair to the committee, there was several times when subscription was discussed and i was always honest with my replies with regard position, wishes and thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Si, The trader subs have been reduced, exactly as you suggested. You mentioned it, we listened, and it's now a tiered system starting at £40. Has been that way for a while. As Gary said, we have to try and apply the forum rules fairly and consistently. It's a very tough position to be in for all of us. A bit of a catch 22. But how do we find the right balance? You posting pictures of your excellent work is effectively free advertising of your business,, whether intentional or not. But it is also you providing pictures to allow group buy customers from when you were a trader, to see the progress of their purchase. Customers recommending and posting picures of work done is the other side of the problem. We don't get all decisions right, but they are always discussed and debated with best intentions. I am sorry that this appears to be at odds with some of our member views too, but we do understand the issue,. If anyone can suggest a more robust way of applying these principles, please post them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaiKai Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Hi all, We the committee have been put in a tricky situation here and no matter which one of us clicked the close button we would get back lash for it. Simons thread titled 'In readiness for the Group Buy, a warm up...' starts with mentioning the group buy. We have absolutely no issues with Simon posting up pictures as a standard member; But we all know what Simons Trade is so its hard to avoid bringing it up. Comparing these posts in my opinion are not the same as Tech threads as posted by Previous Traders like Jeff. Jeffs threads were informational and helped the end user carry out work on there own using there own tools where as Simons posts are of a completed product to be sold. That as it is I myself have personally invested in the group buy and eagerly await my cue to send my parts down to Simon. But as a committee member this thread was heading the wrong way and its prompting members to ask about Simons work which is of Supreme Quality. Since Simon stood down as a Trader the committee has revised the Membership and Trader fees all of which were discussed at the AGM. The tiered system was introduced as not all Traders operate alike and we thought it was fairer solution for all. You can all see that I myself are now operating as a trader I can assure you that I have paid my fees in full before I added my section and banners. If I started showing pictures of websites I completed or work that I have previously done when not a Trader how many would hit the report this post ? I think Simons post however unintentional can only lead to one thing, You have become a victim of your own success. The phrase 'Back door Trading' should be used very loosely, as we are not accusing Simon of purposely posting more content to get more business. Its the member base approaching Simon in these threads that could lead to a bigger issue. Should we open the thread again ? I'm not sure, and it would have to be discussed further with all the committee. Regards Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickz32 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) ... Edited February 13, 2018 by nickz32 Changed my mind, staying out of forum politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondo Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 I'm quoting the following not because I'm trying to justify my starting a thread, but to clarify my points about the Trader fees: Si, The trader subs have been reduced, exactly as you suggested. You mentioned it, we listened, and it's now a tiered system starting at £40. Has been that way for a while. As Gary said, we have to try and apply the forum rules fairly and consistently. It's a very tough position to be in for all of us. A bit of a catch 22. But how do we find the right balance? You posting pictures of your excellent work is effectively free advertising of your business,, whether intentional or not. But it is also you providing pictures to allow group buy customers from when you were a trader, to see the progress of their purchase. Customers recommending and posting picures of work done is the other side of the problem. We don't get all decisions right, but they are always discussed and debated with best intentions. I am sorry that this appears to be at odds with some of our member views too, but we do understand the issue,. If anyone can suggest a more robust way of applying these principles, please post them. Hi all, We the committee have been put in a tricky situation here and no matter which one of us clicked the close button we would get back lash for it. Simons thread titled 'In readiness for the Group Buy, a warm up...' starts with mentioning the group buy. We have absolutely no issues with Simon posting up pictures as a standard member; But we all know what Simons Trade is so its hard to avoid bringing it up. Comparing these posts in my opinion are not the same as Tech threads as posted by Previous Traders like Jeff. Jeffs threads were informational and helped the end user carry out work on there own using there own tools where as Simons posts are of a completed product to be sold. That as it is I myself have personally invested in the group buy and eagerly await my cue to send my parts down to Simon. But as a committee member this thread was heading the wrong way and its prompting members to ask about Simons work which is of Supreme Quality. Since Simon stood down as a Trader the committee has revised the Membership and Trader fees all of which were discussed at the AGM. The tiered system was introduced as not all Traders operate alike and we thought it was fairer solution for all. You can all see that I myself are now operating as a trader I can assure you that I have paid my fees in full before I added my section and banners. If I started showing pictures of websites I completed or work that I have previously done when not a Trader how many would hit the report this post ? I think Simons post however unintentional can only lead to one thing, You have become a victim of your own success. The phrase 'Back door Trading' should be used very loosely, as we are not accusing Simon of purposely posting more content to get more business. Its the member base approaching Simon in these threads that could lead to a bigger issue. Should we open the thread again ? I'm not sure, and it would have to be discussed further with all the committee. Regards Lee When my Trader subs expired, I discussed with Groover the fact that £100 for a year was steep in comparison with other forums. I'm currently a trader on the 350Z/370Z forum which has a much larger member base which is, statistically speaking, much more inclined to spend money on their interiors. The primary reason for this is the fact that their cars, unlike ours here, are not "classics" and therefore don't necessarily hold their values better when unmodified. That said, it's unlikely I'll be renewing as a Trader on there because it's very quiet (for me) nowadays. But, for £54 per year, I get a nice little sub-forum that is all my own and can advertise to my heart's content. I ran this by our Committee and that was when the tiered system came into existence. But that still didn't make financial sense as my "advertising presence" would've been tiny for virtually the same outlay as on the 350Z forum. That's why I didn't renew. I get the Committee's position on this. I do. But I was "granted permission" to post progress images/threads for the group buy which, surely, could attract enquiries just as much as my latest thread has? This surely puts me in an awkward position. I'd say 90% of the members here know what I do for a living and, because of that, I do get enquiries on here. I reply with my email address so anything can be discussed off-forum, specifically to avoid any accusations of back door trading. Now what do I do if I change something on my own interior? Do I post pictures? Or do I keep quiet...? Realistically speaking, any time a member does something themselves it can lead to posts along the lines of "How much to do the same for me?" Joel Morrison played about converting all his lights and he definitely had people asking to do theirs. When Will (wchestnutt) started his Great Japanese Retrim thread, that could be classed as advertising as he's had enquiries following it. As I said previously, my reason for starting the previous thread was mainly to reassure GB participants that they WILL be seeing something for their money. The blame for the delay in getting started lies squarely on me. Hopefully the participants (or the bulk of them) will have seen that thread and their fears are now reasonably assuaged about what sort of end result they can expect. That thread can stay closed as far as I'm concerned. I think I was just more shocked at Gaz's phrasing than anything else as, since my Trader subs expired, I've gone out of my way to avoid "talking shop" on here just to avoid the phrase "back door trading" being mentioned about me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeDM Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Gah, sorry for contributing to getting you into trouble Si. I should’ve been more conscious. FWIW I wrongly assumed Si was a trader just because of how well known his work is which is why I asked the questions I did. Now I know that he isn’t I’ll be sure to contact him outside of this forum should I have further enquiries. I think I just got a bit excited by the pretty pictures. ? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyB Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Well for my two pennyworth why did two committee members contribute to the thread before the WHOLE COMITTEE decided it was backdoor trading, (which I don't see it as) If some else organised a group buy and put it all in one thread would you want them to become a trader ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie K Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 I honestly didn’t see anything wrong with Si’s thread either, I’m in the Group Buy (fully paid up) and I enjoy seeing different ideas on retrims, as it gives me a chance to fine tune my ideas:yes: I also went to Si well before he signed up as a Trader here as it wasn’t his livelihood, just a hobby at that time, his workmanship is second to none and I consider him an asset to this Club. At present there are very few people on here that are considered “experts” in the z32 field, mechanically, we have Jimmer, interior wise, we have Simon, where else can we go where we are fully confident that our pride & joy is getting the best treatment for our hard earned cash:innocent:. We’ve seen before that when a trader decides to cancel his subscription what happens, they’re never heard from again:scared: Simon is a Z32 owner also, so it’s not like he’s just in it for the money, he’s a Club Member, he also innovates and enhances our car interiors to make the 300zx an iconic car that stands out at shows etc. It’s for this reason (and the Clubs benefit) that I’m prepared to pay the Traders sub to keep Simon and Hide n Seat within our community. I saved 25% on my retrim (as have others) so I definitely think it’s worth keeping him here:thumbup1: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeDM Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Simon is a Z32 owner also, so it’s not like he’s just in it for the money, he’s a Club Member, he also innovates and enhances our car interiors to make the 300zx an iconic car that stands out at shows etc. It’s for this reason (and the Clubs benefit) that I’m prepared to pay the Traders sub to keep Simon and Hide n Seat within our community. I saved 25% on my retrim (as have others) so I definitely think it’s worth keeping him here:thumbup1: That’s very generous of you. I’d be happy to donate a tenner towards it myself. Si has been one of the most helpful and welcoming members of the community since before I even owned my car so it’d be no hardship. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz 300 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Gah, sorry for contributing to getting you into trouble Si. I should’ve been more conscious. FWIW I wrongly assumed Si was a trader just because of how well known his work is which is why I asked the questions I did. Now I know that he isn’t I’ll be sure to contact him outside of this forum should I have further enquiries. I think I just got a bit excited by the pretty pictures. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk And there lies the problem you "wrongly assumed Si was a trader" and that is what any new member would think (and most of the older ones) Well for my two pennyworth why did two committee members contribute to the thread before the WHOLE COMITTEE decided it was backdoor trading, (which I don't see it as) If some else organised a group buy and put it all in one thread would you want them to become a trader ? Thank you for pointing that out Tony because if you look at mine and Jaikai's posts we were giving him a fools warning on his thread as Jaikai was pointing out it only takes £40 for him to trade and the big "oops" sign at the end of mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz 300 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 That’s very generous of you. I’d be happy to donate a tenner towards it myself. Si has been one of the most helpful and welcoming members of the community since before I even owned my car so it’d be no hardship. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I will throw a tenner in as well to keep him as a trader if his ego would let us. Its only £40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funkysi Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 I'll throw in a bacon and egg sandwich, a fiver and a dog eared copy of Club International. He did me a fine rim. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyB Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 I'll throw in a tenner also Great idea! Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris300 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 I’d also be willing to chip in to satisfy the rules not being broken, keep a potentially great post live and see a lot more work from Si. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondo Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 I appreciate this gesture, guys, but it's not a shortage of money that stopped me from renewing. It was weighing up the benefits against the outlay, especially when compared to other larger forums. Nobody is required to pay anything for me, although I do appreciate the offers. Ego plays no part in it. By the way, Richie : I was a Trader here before I was even an owner :wink: I'll give some thought to subbing at the minimum level, if only to make the group buy run a little more smoothly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyB Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 And there lies the problem you "wrongly assumed Si was a trader" and that is what any new member would think (and most of the older ones) Thank you for pointing that out Tony because if you look at mine and Jaikai's posts we were giving him a fools warning on his thread as Jaikai was pointing out it only takes £40 for him to trade and the big "oops" sign at the end of mine. You Jaikai and Richard all contributed That was my point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz 300 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 I appreciate this gesture, guys, but it's not a shortage of money that stopped me from renewing. It was weighing up the benefits against the outlay, especially when compared to other larger forums. Nobody is required to pay anything for me, although I do appreciate the offers. Ego plays no part in it. By the way, Richie : I was a Trader here before I was even an owner :wink: I'll give some thought to subbing at the minimum level, if only to make the group buy run a little more smoothly... Yes get that wallet out you know it makes sense :) Si its nothing personal we are friends and hope you don't hold it against me for doing what had to be done. I will support you all the way as I have done in the past but that thread stays closed mate. You Jaikai and Richard all contributed That was my point You just don't get it do you Tony! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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