Right I just spoke to my buddy at home and have results he carried out for me on the Intercoolers I had made.

 

We tested a stock intercooler for temperature drop and one of my intercoolers in the same conditions at the same tests.

We also tested a set of HKS intercoolers

 

The car has an exhaust, intake, JWT chip running around 1 bar of boost.

We tested them the following way.

Driving at a constant 120kph or around 72mph motorway speed.

We then tested them accelerating in third gear from around 50kph till 120kph

We measured the inlet and outlet of the intercoolers.

 

 

Stock Intercooler.

 

120KPH

Inlet temperature 46degrees c

Outlet temperature 41degrees c

 

HKS Intercooler

 

Inlet temperature 46degrees c

Outlet temperature 38degrees c

 

My Intercoolers

 

Inlet temperature 46degrees c

Outlet temperature 37degrees c

 

Stock Intercooler.

 

3rd gear acceleration

Inlet temperature 107degrees c

Outlet temperature 61degrees c

 

HKS Intercooler

 

Inlet temperature 108degrees c

Outlet temperature 41degrees c

 

My Intercoolers

 

Inlet temperature 108degrees c

Outlet temperature 40degrees c

 

So results were Average drop at motorway speed acceleration

 

Stock Intercooler 5 degrees c 46 degrees c

HKS intercooler 8 degrees c 67 degrees c

My unit 8degrees c 68 degrees c

 

So after this I can conclude that my intercoolers are an easy match for the HKS UNITS and far better than the stock units.

You on average gain about 1bhp per degree cooler.

These figures will of course vary according to altitude temperature cars mods ect, but is a good indication of how they work.

 

 

Hope this helps you.

 

------------------

While my TURBO'S are Spooling V8'S are Drooling

Originally posted by Timmy_Turbo:

 

"HOW DID YOU MEASURE THE INLET AND OUTLET TEMPERATURES?"

 

Dunno, I use a thermocouple that plugs into my multimeter to measure mine.

 

Originally posted by Timmy_Turbo:

Jezz, someone I know on this board spent 2 hours being told how IC's work by a very qualified person in this science. As I said, more to just bolting them on and waaaaheeyyyy, 40 bhp a side instantly!

 

I agree whole heartedly, just bunging an IC is NOT going to make much difference, as stated above, but it does allow safer tuning above std boost and a slight increase over std.

After all if you want to stay std boost, why upgrade your IC's? Like sticking in a chip and not making use of the newly introduced/developed areas of the map.

 

But nowhere does it say 40bhp/side extra does it or have i miss read?

It does say there is roughly a 20deg Centi' difference then a rough 1bhp/degree estimation, giving 20bhp ish more, which is more than likely correct as if the boost is the same at 60deg and 40deg (which it will be), then there is obviously more air by mass for that same level of boost as the air is denser, and hence the ECU bungs in more fuel on each intake stroke. More power, which is never a bad thing, esp when you you got an S13 LOL.

 

Before anyone jumps on my back taking the piss out of S13's don't, you'll look stupid.

 

I could work it out (how much denser in a %age the air is per unit temp), but i really can't remmeber, or cannot be arsed to dig books out from 10 years ago; I got a HND in this shit you know. Ooops, too many squirels, mushrooms, lawn clippings etc.

 

I'm sure there is no one who thinks bunging an IC is going to make a huge difference, it's just another expense that saves you more expense when you mod everything else.

 

Some guy came on our board with a std car harping on about water injection, 'I've orderd this, I'm doing that' got the arse when people told him he was wasting his time untill he'd spent another 4K getting to a point where water would make the slightest difference. Most mods are there for protection, and those that scrimp on them end up finding out the hard way. Like me.

I finally burnt some valves after running 250-260bhp (80-90bhp over std) with std zorst and cat for nearly a year, and until April on std UL!!. Thought I'd got away with it, but obviously not, ironic that it should show itself after I've been using Optimax for 3 months, apart from 2 long 180m fast 100mph runs on std UL. Too lazy to drive 10 miles for optimax back at my folks.

 

Fooking hell WW3 while i was writing that.

Can I just say, that I don't have the spare cash at the moment. But I have started saving up for the next time Warren does his next group buy on the intercoolers.

 

They look a cracking bit of kit to me, resonably priced.

 

He has also got to be brave to put the efficiency numbers up on here as well. Does HKS/Blitz/Whoever supply figures when you buy their kit??

 

Keep it chilled gentelmen.

 

Robert.

 

------------------

 

I only use the brakes so I can accelerate all over again.

Here's a bit more usefull/less info for you from our board, some one recently did a bit of a revamp.

 

He has a permanent Charge temp meter on his dash.

 

HUGE difference in performance between these turbo IC combinations.

 

I had the ND FMIC, and swapped to the same The HKS cooler in combination with a T34 from a T3, I noticed that my charge temps dropped from circa 35-40 degrees C (at about 1.2 bar - 18psi) to 18-23 degrees C (at about 1.5bar - 22psi) on Full chat. A big performance difference was also noticed, though, I think 75% of that is probably down to the turbo.

 

Jezz.

Gotta agree with Nico on this one. Timmy, you seem to be having a go a Warren by making out his ICs are crap. It is plain for everyone else to see you two dont get along; but just take the piss out of each other in the general forum, dont stoop to saying that what he has produced is crap when you haven't:

 

a) seen them

b) used them

c) dont intend on even going near a pair

 

I have seen them, held them and generally had a good poke around with them (no jokes please! ). The quality of them was just as good as the HKS ones he has fitted now (which I have also seen, held and generally poked around). I for one am very happy he has got off his lazy arse and done this. I also know that he is not in this for the money as I know how much he is making on them. He has done this as a favour to us all. We should encourage this sort of thing. I now need some cheap 555s. Maybe you can get some?

 

Also, for anyone who read what Timmy wrote about Warren being some kind of "dodgy dealer", I have bought loads of things from him (my car would still be stock if it weren't for him) and I have never had any problems with him, either on delivery, payment or quality.

 

Cheers,

Andy

Oh yeah, and one more thing. Does it matter how he measured those temps??

 

By using a bit of common sense, surely so long as the same method was used for each test, it's the RELATIVE values that are important. Even if the equipment were 8000 degrees C out, it's the relative values that matter, surely?

 

Also, regarding the whole ducting for IC thing. I think it was on the original ultimatez website where it said that ducting was a good thing, but only added 1-2bhp, and that the ICs were the main upgrade and the ducting, whilst nice, was a pretty small part of the IC/ducting performance gain.

This is all getting well out of hand. Come on everyone, you're all here because of a common interest. Please don't forget it. I love the day to day banter but this situation is getting beyond funny.

 

I have managed to be part of this forum for a few years without having a gripe with anyone on here. I am not alone.

 

I share views with Timmy on a number of things (SE being the big one and Warren IS wrong of course!) but I also rate Warren as a thoroughly decent bloke. I would be happy to take his word on the facts of these intercooler tests. Any potential buyer should just make their mind up on whether it's right for them.

 

Technically I don't have anything to add to the above - ICs give the potential for more power and only mild power gains themselves. Some of the above could be misconstrued but I doubt it was intended that way.

 

Timmy & Warren are core characters on this forum and it's not good to see what's been happening and I for one would like to see it calm down.

 

Some of the newer people might be wise to get a feel for the place before jumping in feet first with aggressive posts. But if not then you deserve what you get - the more vocal forum members are quite capable of looking after themselves !

 

Dave

excuse the caps, but fuck it

 

I AM THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAS A SET OF WARRENS INTERCOOLERS, WHETHER ON OR OFF THE CAR.

 

I HAVE THE PROTOTYPES WHICH WE FITTED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE MOUNTING POINTS WERE IN THE RIGHT PLACES, THE PIPES WERE IN THE RIGHT PLACES, THAT THEY ACTUALLY FITTED IN PLACE, AND THAT THEY WORKED.

 

THEY DO.

 

WE HAD TO DO 2 THINGS TO MAKE THEM FIT, WHICH YOU HAVE TO DO IF YOU HAD HKS ONES AS WELL.

 

REMOVE THE PLASTIC AIR GUIDES THAT FEED THE STOCK AIRBOX FROM THE WHEEL ARCH

 

BEND THE PIPES TO THE CARBON CANISTER (IT CAN BE REMOVED, BUT I DIDNT WANT TO AT THE TIME)

 

WE REMOVED THE DUCTING SO THAT WARREN COULD SEE ABOUT GETTING LARGER DUCTING MADE.

 

I DONT CARE AT THE MOMENT IF I LOSE HALF THE COOLING CAPACITY, AS I AM NOT RUNNING MASSIVE BOOST.

 

I DONT CARE AT THE MOMENT IF I LOSE HALF THE COOLING CAPACITY, AS I WANT TO CHANGE THE FRONT BUMPER ON MY CAR.

 

WITH SOME FRONT BUMPERS, I WOULD HAVE TO REMOVE THE DUCTING ANYWAY, AS I WOULD NOT NEED IT.

 

HOW MUCH DO STILLEN, SE AND OTHER COMPANIES CHARGE FOR DUCTING ? ABOUT 200 QUID.

 

HOW MUCH DO THEY COST TO PRODUCE ? ABOUT 20 QUID.

 

SO WHY DOESNT WARREN GET SOME MADE ? AND WHY THE 1000% PRICE INCREASE ?

 

IT COSTS 4000 QUID TO HAVE THE MOULD MADE AND YOU WOULD HAVE TO HAVE 100 UNITS MADE AT A TIME.

 

HAVE I NOTICED A DIFFERENCE IN THE PERFORMANCE OF MY CAR SINCE INSTALLING THEM ?

 

YES. I HAD SLIGHTLY INCREASED LAG. I COMPENSATED FOR THIS BY CHANGING THE DUTY CYCLE ON MY AVCR.

 

AT TIMES WHEN I KNEW I HAD HEAT SOAK AND THE STOCK INTERCOOLERS WERE NOT PERFORMING (AFTER TRAFFIC JAMS, ESPECIALLY ON HOT DAYS) I GET THE PERFORMANCE BACK QUICKER, IF I EVEN NOTICE A DEGRADATION.

 

OTHER THAN THAT, I DONT KNOW WHAT ELSE TO LOOK OUT FOR, ESPECIALLY WHEN RUNNING STOCK TURBOS, STOCK INJECTORS, STOCK CHIP.

 

I HAVE THESE INTERCOOLERS, SO I AM READY FOR MY NEXT ROUND OF PERFORMANCE UPGRADES.

 

DO I CARE THAT THEY ARE NOT A NAME BRAND ? NO

AM I JUST STICKING UP FOR WARREN BECAUSE HE IS MY FRIEND ? NO

AM I TAKING SIDES AND SHOWING ANY PREFERENCES ? NO

 

I AM STATING THE FACTS THAT I KNOW TO BE CORRECT

 

THEY DO THE JOB. WARREN SUPPLIED THEM. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THEM.

 

[This message has been edited by craig (edited 10-07-2002).]

Originally posted by craig:

 

HOW MUCH DO STILLEN, SE AND OTHER COMPANIES CHARGE FOR DUCTING ? ABOUT 200 QUID.

 

[This message has been edited by craig (edited 10-07-2002).]

Stillen charge $200 and SE charge £45

 

 

 

------------------

Originally posted by MAC 1:

Originally posted by craig:

 

HOW MUCH DO STILLEN, SE AND OTHER COMPANIES CHARGE FOR DUCTING ? ABOUT 200 QUID.

 

[This message has been edited by craig (edited 10-07-2002).]

Stillen charge $200 and SE charge £45

 

 

i dont think they have always been that price Iain. once you have recovered the initial tooling cost (which i am sure could be done cheaper than 4000 if you know someone, or spend a few days ringing round) then you can always bring the price down.

 

also, as they are custom matched to the intercoolers that they supply, how much do their intercoolers cost in comparison ?

 

se = 999 quid for all parts

stillen = $1050 on offer (RRP $1279) with $199 for the ducting (on offer, RRP $292)

 

this is for both companies, i am not picking on either....

 

hks and greddy do not even list ducting as part of their kit, and how much do the intercoolers cost from them ?

 

850 quid and $1200 respectively !!

 

TDI have pics of the ducting for HKS intercoolers on http://www.tdi-plc.com/300ZX.html at stage 4

 

and how much extra cooling do you think you get from the ducting as seen on the pic ? be honest....

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by craig (edited 10-07-2002).]

I reckon effective ducting could be sorted out with a sheet of aluminium and a pop riveter. Fibreglass or pretty carbon fibre would be nice, but aluminium is cheap, stong and functional.

IMHO I think ducting will help to cool the entire core more even,and drop the charge temp.I emailed eatricezone and he said they did back to back tests with Stillen,Greddy,and HKS and the HKS ones came last for cooling.Why I dont know I never asked.

 

------------------

Just for interest i paid (this monseterous discount from johnny at gps) 780 pounds for my intercoolers - HKS ones, so not sure how big that discount was.

 

 

Intercooler ducting i have looked into and not thaught id go and develop the moulding tools for the coolers as it was not cost effective for me to do so, and please all remember i NEVER ONCE DID THIS FOR PROFIT as i dont even do this for business. I did it to show that it could be done without the ripoff prices all of the above companys charge. And at the end of the day ,anyone who has seen these intercoolers would agree they are as good if not better quality finish than the HKS units i have.

 

I never copied the HKS Design as it is a complete different spec in height and thickness -so just the facts eh

Regarding testing of the coolers as Andrew says its completely irrelevenat how accurate it was as (im pretty sure it was accurate) it was the same test carried out on all three coolers, at roughly the same ambient temperature , time , ect

Its really not rocket science. Its a heat exchnager ffks.

i did it first and formost to help other members on this forum who have helped me.

 

So if you want to get them , i will more than gladly help you get them

If you dont then why even bother posting on this thread as i have kept it in the tech section, and it is then of no relevence to you.

At the end of the day its freedom of choice.

if you want to spend

1000 pounds on a a set from SE or HKS then go ahead, it does no harm to me and good luck.

I never said at any time i would supply the ducting, i have looked into it and im not prepared to get it done unless everyone wants to cover the costs and get them made up.

 

From the people ive spoken to which has been numerous, the ammount of gain you get from putting a little duct in the front is neglegable.

There are many other factors that would affect cooling ect.

 

Pretty sad really that there are so many scptics out there who really never do actualyl contribute anything to the forum.

But like i say freedom of choice. Freedom of thaught.

And i woudl really like to see anyone get the figures out of HKS/STILLEN/Greddy ect as they dont produce them.

Firstly I never actually said the intercoolers were shite, I was asking for technical spec and how they were tested. Warren can't seem to provide that information which he seems to expect others to provide.

 

Right and now IMO to quote what an expert told me recently which is exactly what I was harping on about...

 

Phuong from GR Racing replied to a recent email query I had:

 

Flow and pressure loss. SGP had some data on the three intercoolers, GReddy being best, Stillen 2nd, HKS third.

 

Stillen and HKS are tall so 1/2 the IC is hiding behind the bumper. Since Stillen has ducts made for their IC, it isn't a problem. GReddy is short & fat so it sits right in the airflow. With the HKS you don't full utilize all of the airflow because it sits behind the bumper; some people take out the foglight thus allowing more flow but it is better to

just get something that fits/works better. HKS isn't terrible but the Stillen/GReddy is just better.

 

 

 

------------------

Iain, i agree with you, that ducting will help to even out the cooling over the core.

 

problem is, ducting is cheap to make one offs, but to do a production run with quality is not.

 

andyp has the right idea, put your IC's on, then make your ducting to fit your own car...

 

the HKS ducting on that pic is probably little or no help at all, and they would probably be less efficient over all the other upgraded ones in the same area. but they are better than stock.

 

and, if you have a front bumper with bigger intercooler vents, then overall i think they would perform a lot better and more in line with the other upgraded makes.

Originally posted by MAC 1:

IMHO I think ducting will help to cool the entire core more even,and drop the charge temp.I emailed eatricezone and he said they did back to back tests with Stillen,Greddy,and HKS and the HKS ones came last for cooling.Why I dont know I never asked.

 

 

That strange because i asked stillen on the phone about figures ect and they could not give me back to back results against any of the other manufactures.

I also emailed HKS and Greddy and i recieved information on a basic test they run.

And the ammount of variables involved in gaining accurate figures is almost impossible, as atmosperic pressure / the pressure they flow tested them ect has huge ammounts of variations on this.

The results of the tests onthe hks and greddy units were that the

HKS units gave a better flowrate but a lower pressure drop and this was only by a few percent.

Anyone knows aswell that it is the efficiency rate that is the figure you take for a decent intercooler.

Mine were around 76%efficient. HKS units were less so.

as proved by the tests.

I guess this is 6 and a half dozen anyway.

 

The pic on the TDi website is my car with HKS IC's and stock ducting with the top part cut off. I bought Stillen IC ducting and will modify them to fit my HKS. It shouldn't be difficult to take a pattern of the Stillen ducts and get them made from say aluminium to fit another design.

 

Sport Compact Car in their project Z stated that they had found ducting could improve IC efficiency by up to 40% or more. It makes sense to me that the airflow is directed thru the ICs rather than allowed to flow past.

 

-Andrew