Right I just spoke to my buddy at home and have results he carried out for me on the Intercoolers I had made.

 

We tested a stock intercooler for temperature drop and one of my intercoolers in the same conditions at the same tests.

We also tested a set of HKS intercoolers

 

The car has an exhaust, intake, JWT chip running around 1 bar of boost.

We tested them the following way.

Driving at a constant 120kph or around 72mph motorway speed.

We then tested them accelerating in third gear from around 50kph till 120kph

We measured the inlet and outlet of the intercoolers.

 

 

Stock Intercooler.

 

120KPH

Inlet temperature 46degrees c

Outlet temperature 41degrees c

 

HKS Intercooler

 

Inlet temperature 46degrees c

Outlet temperature 38degrees c

 

My Intercoolers

 

Inlet temperature 46degrees c

Outlet temperature 37degrees c

 

Stock Intercooler.

 

3rd gear acceleration

Inlet temperature 107degrees c

Outlet temperature 61degrees c

 

HKS Intercooler

 

Inlet temperature 108degrees c

Outlet temperature 41degrees c

 

My Intercoolers

 

Inlet temperature 108degrees c

Outlet temperature 40degrees c

 

So results were Average drop at motorway speed acceleration

 

Stock Intercooler 5 degrees c 46 degrees c

HKS intercooler 8 degrees c 67 degrees c

My unit 8degrees c 68 degrees c

 

So after this I can conclude that my intercoolers are an easy match for the HKS UNITS and far better than the stock units.

You on average gain about 1bhp per degree cooler.

These figures will of course vary according to altitude temperature cars mods ect, but is a good indication of how they work.

 

 

Hope this helps you.

 

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While my TURBO'S are Spooling V8'S are Drooling

Some intensive testing there Warren, if we are to assume all the figures are acurate and we have no reason to doubt them are you saying that your design intercooler would improve the performance of the car by around 20 bhp when accelerating in in 3rd gear compared with that of a stock intercooler?

 

Would that be per intercooler? 40 bhp? or not

 

Having seen how, many years ago car tuning was based around camshaft and Peco exhaust mods in the main, the increases were marginal (10 to 15 bhp) for an outlay of £400 I always concluded then that it was not worth it.

 

As we all now drive much more complex vehicles that have huge power capacity 20bhp increase kinda looks like we have not evolved very far in 25 years?

 

No disrespect or critisym (spelling!)but unless I have got it wrong (likely) ££ss outlay per result seem`s low, does it have that much effect in NORMAL day to day use or is the intention to chase little pocket`s of power increase`s that build a bigger picture as you add more tuning gear?

Warren?

 

Jeff TT

 

 

The stock intercoolers on the 300 are crap. They have plastic end caps etc and do not flow well at all.

 

It is standard practise with the 300 when following upgrade paths to get the intercoolers uprated as one of the first mods. This does not have the benefit of increased power - any increase is a bonus on a stock(ish) setup.

 

The fact is this. If anyone is even contemplating running boost above around 13psi, unless they don't like their engine internals very much, then intercoolers are a pretty essential part of the upgrade process.

 

The fact that they don't show a huge power gain isn't a factor here - its the fact that the stock ICs are not up to running above stock conditions....

 

HTH

 

CheerZ,

 

Andy

First of why would you have to assume the figures were correct?

Im confident we did the test in the correct manor.

 

secondly As a turbo builds boost it compresses the air which becomes very hot. At lower boost levels this not very serious but at higher levels this can lead to destructive detonation. An intercooler core contains a series of tubes with fins that will remove heat from the inlet charge as the air passes through it. The amount of heat removed will depend on location, core size, and a number of other factors, and as you had first hand experience at seeing a car destroy itself because of running to much boost and heat soaking the inlet ect.

 

At the end of the day anyone who is serious about modifying his or her car would need to upgrade the intercoolers as they will not be able to cope with the airflow a bigger turbocharger would be able to flow.

 

There are no short cuts to horsepower unfortunately.

 

Intercoolers are not really a power mod - Yes you will get a smaller power gain from them when you fit them as the xtra cooling of the intake charge will provide a colder hence Denser air into the cylinders which has more potential energy.Hence adding intercoolers will drasticaly increase the potentail engery of your car with regards to the engine as a system as it allows you to run Higher overall boost safely. Well there goes the Car modding 101 bit.

 

As im sure you all know as pressure increases so does heat. therefor if you want to run higher boost your engine will have to cope with more heat - otherwise it Goes Pop -Electrodes burn Piston crowns crack !

 

Now The only was the Engine can do this is :

 

Modfiy ignition timing on the fly - Hmmmm not good whats the point in having more pressure in there if you aren't using it !

 

Decrease the compressoin ratio of the cylinders ! What would be nice .... NOT !

 

Add more Fuel - A good solution - but again comes at a HP price.

 

Cool either the Intake Charge or the Cylinder by either Intercoolin or adding a cooling agent to the charge (NOS, o2)

 

 

Another thing that people like to do on here is run upwards ot 15psi on stock turbos (or stock compressor wheels) which results in extra heat generate essentially by turblulance( I wont go into the exact nature of it) As you are operating at the very limits of the turbos efficency. So there for you are adding even more heat to a already hot cocktail. This nice hot charge then makes its way to the engine thru the puny stock intercoolers - and if you run WOT for more than about say 10 - 15 seconds the stock intercoolers themselves get soo hot and soaked with heat they no longer do a thing. Simple thermaldynamics.

 

Since you didn't invest and any further intercooling you are now pushing exhuast temps in the region of 950Degrees ! How long is your engine going to last - errr not very!

 

In short - you wanna run stage 3 (14psi) dont buy intercoolers - you wanna run 1psi more Intercoolers should be your first mod !

 

 

 

 

------------------

Z ya

 

Nico91TT

 

 

God is coming ...and he dont have stock turbos . . .

Listen to Nico. I didn't fit intercoolers and I am paying for it now! Upgraded intercoolers are on order and until they are fitted, even with larger turbos, 555 injectors and ecu, after the engine rebuild is completed I am not running mine higher than 1bar. Then intercoolers and tuning at SE Nissan for peace of mind.

temperature and flow are the two components that are important here

 

there has been enough explanation already about how cooler air produces more power, due to temp, density and volume relationships

 

flow is important too though (normally measured in cfm)

 

stock intercoolers have a specific max cfm, which will have been matched to the cfm output by the turbos at normal or slightly modified boost pressure. this will have been carefully measured and the right intercoolers designed and installed by nissan.

 

once you start increasing the power, by whatever means, you start to change the cfm, the physical flow

 

the airflow through the engine is governed by EVERYTHING from air entering the space where the filter is, to the exhaust tips.

 

just by changing the air filter, you are allowing the turbos to pull more air into the system, and by changing the exhaust, you are allowing air to be removed quicker, making the journey through the engine faster.

 

there are restrictions to the airflow all the way through the engine

 

the intercoolers are one of them

 

as soon as you want to push more air through them than they can physically flow, you have a bottle neck

 

what happens when you get a bottle neck like that ?

between turbo and bottleneck you get a pressure increase while the turbo is still spinning. pressure increase = more heat which you still cant cool down because it isnt flowing anywhere

 

also, the increased pressure will get to a point where it is bled off through the actuator... so you have built boost which should give you more power, and have to throw it away without using it

 

 

so, making more power means you need to flow more air, and to do that you have to remove or reduce the bottlenecks.

 

you cant remove the intercoolers, because you need to cool the air down and that is their job, so you need to change the intercoolers for some that allow more airflow

 

 

ALL of the components in the engine have been matched by nissan to work well together, and that includes the stock airbox.

 

once you start changing things, you need to be aware of what impact that has on the rest of the system, and where the bottlenecks move to as you upgrade different components

 

 

Best post I read in months!! thats why I got a pair of Wazzas intercoolers on order.

I found that running past 14psi would cause the engine to DET even with the upgraded chip, obviously the stock intercoolers are passing the hot charge to the engine causing the DET, so 12.5 psi for me until I get the bigger coolers.

I suppose the message here is Bigger Intercoolers helps you make bigger power

So when is the next group buy on these. I'm up for a set.

Originally posted by marczxt:

I suppose the message here is Bigger Intercoolers helps you make bigger power

 

Absolutely, the fact that the IC's reduce the temp so giving more power (1bhp / deg) is irrelevant really, it's the fact that a) they can flow more air with less restriction/load on the turbo therefore making hte turbo more efficient, and b) that you can whack the boost up till you again reach the critical detting temp.

 

It's reckoned that the differential in boost before and after the IC on the s13 running say 15 Psi (plenum side) is about 3 psi, IE the turbo is actually generating 18psi of boost, but the crappy restricitive std IC throttles the boost, this means the turbo is doing far more than it needs and is just heating air up rather than shifting air.

 

To say that IC's are a power mod is a bit dumb really.

It's like the chip argument, they are not really there to give you power, just there so that you can safely up the boost in the knowledge that you are getting enough fuel, assuming you have injectors/pump to match.

 

I reckon someone's just trying to be controversial for the sake of it. IMHO

 

Sorry if that's repeated what anyone else has said but I coulnd't be arsed to read it all.

 

Jezz.

devil email me

we will try anopther group buy after this one is finished.

 

Jaylox you have mail.

Warren

Put me down for a set on the next GB.

Converting my car to manual meant I couldnt afford this one.

What did you use to measure the inlet and outlet temperatures?

 

Anyone could post those numbers, got any printouts you can scan otherwise I wouldn't be inclined to believe any of it!

 

I heard that you just made cheap copies from the HKS IC's you bought at mega discount from Johnny!

 

Have you got any pics of them mounted on a 300??? Not much point shelling out for them if they don't fit properly, you get a hose kinked and they are effectively gonna be more useless than stock. Lot of money to hand over without knowing what you're getting IMO!

 

Just the facts eh WaZZa???

 

 

 

------------------

Timmy, If they are good enough for Craigs car they are good enough for me, they look like good quality to me.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by marczxt (edited 09-07-2002).]

Timmy, they are on Craigs car already, pics of the ICs are in Wazza's ride section.

Here is a pic of them on Craigs car

 

 

[This message has been edited by marczxt (edited 09-07-2002).]

OK, so with a stock bumper or any aftermarket for that matter how can you be so sure that the airflow is getting through the whole increased area?

 

I know that with the SE intercoolers you have to buy bigger intercooler inlet scoops to redirect the airflow for maximum throughput!

 

Looking at that pic I'd bet that only half the surface of the inlet charge is actually being cooled as the IC is so tall over stock that the top half would be covered with the bumper moulding.

 

Without custom ducts to channel the air properly I wouldn't have thought(apart from the thicker core) that you would see much benefit. Just an observation that's all.

 

Just that most people think IC's are a basic tool in the equation but when you uprate to aftermarket there is much more to just bolting them on.

 

------------------

 

 

[This message has been edited by Timmy_Turbo (edited 09-07-2002).]

lol timmy this is so pathetic, its not worth getting into.

 

Originally posted by 300z:

lol timmy this is so pathetic, its not worth getting into.

 

LOL, just as I thought...BULLSHIT!

 

I wouldn't touch 'em with a barge pole!

 

 

 

------------------

Timmy,

 

It's obvious that the better/bigger core with welded on endcaps that the IC is going to perform better, and flow better with less restriction. Do you agree?

 

Do SE supply the ducting as part of the kit? If so does it cost lots more than £450 odd, I guess so.

Does the HKS one come with ducting. I guess not. Does it cost more? Yes.

 

Just bolting the IC's on IS going to have a positive effect and you know that, spending a few more squids on ducting will have another positive effect.

 

Does it matter that the IC mounting points etc are copied from the HKS one if indeed they are? If copied means equally as good or possibly better performance for much less dollars that more people can enjoy the performance then what is the problem.

 

Just cos something says HKS on and cost big bucks it doesn't mean it's necessarily the best you can buy does it?

 

There is a guy on our board that is knocking out S13 (copied SAAB) and soon S14 (Greddy) IC's at a VERY good price, which are equal to the likes of SE/ND and possibly HKS/Greddy etc.

Mr Norris even is impressed with the S13 one, esp for the price as it out performs his £700 kit.

 

Just goes to show how much these companies are taking the piss, but everyone wants to have them (Blitz/HKS) as the name looks good. I'm not saying HKS et al stuff is crap by any means, just saying it's overpriced esp here in the UK due to the wanky distribution ethics.

 

So it's god for people like me that someone is willing to get off their arse to do stuff like this. You might have shed loads of cash, but not everyone has.

 

 

I agree with everything you said Jezz, I asked a very simple question that even Sideshow Bob can understand!

 

"HOW DID YOU MEASURE THE INLET AND OUTLET TEMPERATURES?"

 

I read a thread today somewhere where SB insisted on hard facts and proof!

 

So now he's gone off to find out how an inlet charge and outlet charge for testing IC's is done, probably off TT.net so he can cover up for the bullshit he tells everybody.

 

Jezz, someone I know on this board spent 2 hours being told how IC's work by a very qualified person in this science. As I said, more to just bolting them on and waaaaheeyyyy, 40 bhp a side instantly!

 

 

 

------------------

Looks like another war is going to break out on this thread.

Timmy I think even if Wazza could supply all the proof and documentation in the world it still wouldn't move you to think they were a good product. The fact of the matter you both don't like each other! and this is another excuse to have a go at each other

 

[This message has been edited by marczxt (edited 09-07-2002).]

Originally posted by marczxt:

Looks like another war is going to break out on this thread.

Timmy I think even if Wazza could supply all the proof and documentation in the world it still wouldn't move you to think they were a good product. The fact of the matter you both don't like each other! and this is another excuse to have a go at each other

 

[This message has been edited by marczxt (edited 09-07-2002).]

 

Yeah, well think long and hard about this one then before any of you hand over your cash!

 

I took part in a GB with this fucking idiot a while back. He had a cheque off me months in advance for a set of Blitz springs and kept blaming his supplier as to why they kept being delayed!

 

What I later found out was that the person supplying him with the springs was waiting for the money which he'd been supposedly holding for us the buyers.

 

He'd spent it basically and then couldn't pay up!!!

 

So yes I have fucking good reason NOT to buy fuck all from this twat!

 

------------------

 

[This message has been edited by Timmy_Turbo (edited 09-07-2002).]

 

Hmmm Warren trys to provide a usefull service to the members of this forum and you take your personal disagrements with him to the extent of trying to degrade the product he has gone to great lengths to put together with little support from people on here as they Didn't realize IC's were important when he started it, The guy is saving people in the region of 600quid, Sheesh.

 

I have to say i dont condone this behaviour. Just Insult him back or whatever - that is what the General forum appears to be for !

 

But just to play devils advocate - I know the guy that made warrens IC's not personally but i have seen many examples of his work and if one guy knows how to make to notch performance products on a budget its this guy.

 

Measuring Inlet and outlet temprature isn't exactly rocket science, any monkey with a temp guage and a transducer could measure it !

And ducting Yes its a improvement - I believe Stealin sell it for about 150 quid ! It will save you about 25% on one side and about 12% on the other if i remmember rightly - for one reason one side runs a lot hotter - strange but true apparently. I believe not you can buy insulator for the top of the IC's to to keep the cold air in there - Smithy is currently looking at cloning these - the Americans seem to think they are worth while !

 

I would completely disagree in that ducting was more important OR even a crucial part of a IC setup - You will gain a bit from it but no where near what you will gain from the IC itself with regards to Temprature Drop and Flow rate over Stock.

 

And yes the stock bumper is a air flow bottle neck BUT what it lacks in IC flow it makes up for in drag coefficent !

 

I would not put this product on my car if i thought it was shit ! im running on the very envelope as to what is safe at WOT and if i didn't think this IC would do the job i wouldn't put it ON.

 

Anyway i wouldn't worry about it Warrens finsihed the GB and im sure that he wont be doing another one after the thanks he gets. At the end of the day the only thing that will do the talking is the Dyno Numbers, Quater Mile or Track time of the people that use thm !

 

 

 

------------------

Z ya

 

Nico91TT

 

 

God is coming ...and he dont have stock turbos . . .

I dunno is it just me then? He upsets every fucker companies, suppliers, garages, members and all the time people think the sun shines out of his arse?

 

FFS!

 

Just stating fact Nick, maybe he should be more careful with what he says then?

 

 

 

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