One for the techies I think.

 

Yesterday on the rolling road, I was the only person to have had a higher torque reading than bhp!

 

What is the actual relationship between torque and BHP?

And why do people want more bhp when it is torque that actually provides the accelaration?

bhp is calculated from the torque figure and rpm. If your peak torque figure was higher than your bhp, it just means your power band is lower down the rev range, or maybe you need finer tuning to keep the torque higher up the rev range and thus give you more bhp

and also in the real world bhp means nothing!! torque is acceleration ;)

aint bhp "break horse power", like how much the engine slows the car when you take your foot off the gas in gear? Or is that just down to how much compression your getting out of the engine?

BRAKE horse power, they put a brake on the flywheel I think and measure it that way not break as in slowing down

Also have to think about weight. Your car might be very powerful and put loads of torque on the rolling road but if it weighs 5 tonnes its not going to accelerate very fast is it? Or do they put resistance on the rolling road to simulate the cars weight? Or am i talking rubbish?

 

example - diesels have loads of torque so they can pull heavy loads.

But they dont accerate very quickly?

Horsepower = torque x rpm / 5252

Also have to think about weight. Your car might be very powerful and put loads of torque on the rolling road but if it weighs 5 tonnes its not going to accelerate very fast is it? Or do they put resistance on the rolling road to simulate the cars weight? Or am i talking rubbish?

 

example - diesels have loads of torque so they can pull heavy loads.

But they dont accerate very quickly?

 

No, a rolling road doesn't consider weight or wind resistance, or a number of other things.

 

Diesels do generally have heaps of torque, but due to the low speed of the flame path they don't tend to rev fast, so with the exception of some of the very new ones, they don't tend to accelerate fast either.

bhp is calculated from the torque figure and rpm. If your peak torque figure was higher than your bhp, it just means your power band is lower down the rev range, or maybe you need finer tuning to keep the torque higher up the rev range and thus give you more bhp

That makes sense as my peak torque was at 3500 RPM.

 

and also in the real world bhp means nothing!! torque is acceleration ;)

Just what I thought...

can you post your graph?

can you post your graph?

I'll try and remember it tomorrow mate...

and also in the real world bhp means nothing!! torque is acceleration ;)

 

What he said........

 

.....except for top speed of course, where more BHP will help :tongue:

 

Richard :cool:

here's one of mine..... :dance:

 

..

The rolling road measures torque only.

The bhp is calculated from the torque and rpm.

The torque is measured at the wheels and then at full rpm the throttle is lifted and the rollers measure the engine/transmission drag as the car slows down.

These 2 figures are added together to give the flywheel hp.

 

Most 'normal' cars have a higher torque figure than bhp figure.

Cars with higher bhp than torque tend to be high revving, clutch slipping beasts.

 

Of course 'higher' is just a coincedence of the units, when n/m becomes more popular for torque then everyone will have a higher bhp figure than torque.

 

For max acceleration you need lots of torque all thro the rpm band you are using between gears.

It's no good having a big torque figure if the slope of the graph is very steep before and after the peak, unless you've got 6,7 or 8 gears to play with.

 

It's difficult to fine tune the position of the peak torque point. This is usually a characteristic of the camshaft. subsequent tuning then alters the amount of torque, but not the peak torque point.

 

One last thing, it's easy to spot a bogus dyno readout cos due to the formula mentioned earlier, the torque and hp lines on the graph will allways cross at 5252rpm.

If they don't then it's crap. I've seen lots which don't.

One last thing, it's easy to spot a bogus dyno readout cos due to the formula mentioned earlier, the torque and hp lines on the graph will allways cross at 5252rpm

 

Wouldn't that depend on the scale of the graphs ?

mine from Sunday

nzniggles-no, scale of graphs is irrelevant.

mike you video

 

nzniggles-no, scale of graphs is irrelevant.

 

thats right - below 5252 rpm the torque will always be higher than the bhp, and above 5252 rpm the bhp will always be higher than the torque. At 5252 rpm the bhp and torque will be exactly the same.

my Dyno run

 

The rolling road measures torque only.

The bhp is calculated from the torque and rpm.

The torque is measured at the wheels and then at full rpm the throttle is lifted and the rollers measure the engine/transmission drag as the car slows down.

These 2 figures are added together to give the flywheel hp.

 

Most 'normal' cars have a higher torque figure than bhp figure.

Cars with higher bhp than torque tend to be high revving, clutch slipping beasts.

 

Of course 'higher' is just a coincedence of the units, when n/m becomes more popular for torque then everyone will have a higher bhp figure than torque.

 

For max acceleration you need lots of torque all thro the rpm band you are using between gears.

It's no good having a big torque figure if the slope of the graph is very steep before and after the peak, unless you've got 6,7 or 8 gears to play with.

 

It's difficult to fine tune the position of the peak torque point. This is usually a characteristic of the camshaft. subsequent tuning then alters the amount of torque, but not the peak torque point.

 

One last thing, it's easy to spot a bogus dyno readout cos due to the formula mentioned earlier, the torque and hp lines on the graph will allways cross at 5252rpm.

If they don't then it's crap. I've seen lots which don't.

That is exactly what I wanted to understand.

So BHP is basically a manipulation of the torque figure and it means very little.

 

Keith maybe you could shed some light on my dyno graph?

If my peak torque is at 3700 RPM and Krsmayo's peak torque is 5000 RPM does that mean my engine may have some different cams in it?

Also, what is the best way to get my torque readings to stay level after they peak?

 

Thanks again.

Keith maybe you could shed some light on my dyno graph?

If my peak torque is at 3700 RPM and Krsmayo's peak torque is 5000 RPM does that mean my engine may have some different cams in it?

.

Is one auto and one manual (or had a manual conversion) ?

my peak torque is at just under 5k rpm, in a 97 na which i believe has different cams - from late 95 onwards, ie no VVT. Torque level was pretty flat till both the bhp and the torque fell away at 6500 rpm. Cars standard.

Is one auto and one manual (or had a manual conversion) ?

90% sure this is not the case.

A simple explanation of torque and bhp is this. When you put your foot down BHP is what throws your head back in the seat and TORQUE is what keeps it pinned there.

A simple explanation of torque and bhp is this. When you put your foot down BHP is what throws your head back in the seat and TORQUE is what keeps it pinned there.

 

I would say really that it's torque which throws your head back and keeps you pinned to your seat. If your engine can keep you pinned back right to the higher rev range then you will be producing good power too.

 

mgh297...I'm not sure about the difference in peak torque points for the 2 engines without seeing the full specs for each. My main area of interest is big v8's.

They could have different cams, but it could be a combination of other things when you introduce variable valve timing and ecu's and turbos and knock sensors.

 

The only way to get a flatter torque curve is to cram more air and fuel thro the engine, preferably without blowing it up. If my engine dropped torque fairly fast then the first thing I'd do would be to repeat the run with some octane booster, just to make sure the knock sensor wasn't pulling some timing out at high rpm's.

 

On my last car I had an aftermarket ecu which had a 24 channel datalogging facility. So I could go out on my 'private test track', do a run, then go home and study what was going on at any point of the run. Timing, air fuel ratios, boost, all sorts of stuff. and the acceleration computer worked out the power and torque. Not been on a rolling road for years.