Hi, you'll probably be hearing a bit from me in the coming months but I thought it would be of interest to post this item.

 

 

A word of caution – You get what you pay for!

 

Below is an article written by John Rowland, Silkolene/Fuchs Chief R & D Chemist for 40 years.

 

Quote:

 

Costs of synthetics vary considerably. The most expensive are the “Ester” types originally only used in jet engines. These cost 6 to 10 times more than high quality mineral oils. The cheapest synthetics are not really synthetic at all, from a chemists point of view. These are in fact specially refined light viscosity mineral oils known as “hydrocracked”. These have some advantages over equivalent mineral oils, particularly in lower viscosity motor oils such as 5w-30 or other oils with a low “W” rating such as 5w-50 etc and they cost about 1.5 times more than good quality mineral fractions. We use several different grades of this base oil, where appropriate. This is the “synthetic” which is always used in cheap oils that are labelled “synthetic”. Yes it’s a cruel world, you get what you pay for!

 

Now, you may ask, why are these special mineral oils called “synthetic”? Well, it was all sorted in a legal battle that took place in the USA about ten years ago. Sound reasons (including evidence from a Nobel Prize winning chemist) were disregarded and the final ruling was that certain mineral bases that had undergone extra chemical treatments could be called “synthetic”. Needless to say, the marketing executives wet their knickers with pure delight! They realised that this meant, and still does, that the critical buzz-word “synthetic” could be printed on a can of cheap oil provided that the contents included a few percent of “hydrocracked” mineral oil, at a cost of quite literally a few pence.

 

So, the chemistry of “synthetics” is complex and so is the politics!

 

The economics are very simple. If you like the look of a smart well-marketed can with “synthetic” printed on it, fair enough, it will not cost you a lot; and now you know why this is the case. But, if you drive a high performance car, and you intend to keep it for several years, and maybe do the odd “track day”, then you need a genuine Ester/PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin) synthetic oil, such as PRO S or PRO R. This oil costs more money to buy, because it costs us a lot of money to make, very simply, you always get what you pay for!

 

UNQUOTE:

 

This article is something that all car owners should read and understand before buying oil and I’ve posted this with Johns permission.

 

Cheers,

Simon Barnard.

OPIE OILS

Yes , I think you're correct Mark.

I never use the stuff but alot of my mates do and I have to say without any problems.

 

Mark, did you get my message the other day?

 

Cheers,

Yes thanks Trev got your message and sent to the admin for them to consider!

Hmm,

 

Paul C first.

 

I'm not really up on bike oils and don't stock the Mobil ones, only Silkolene which we have always found to be top notch. Their electrosyntec technology is truly clever stuff. So I wouldn't like to comment.

 

Mobil 1, good stuff yes but POA not ester which I would always favour for its clear benefits over POA's.

 

Additives,

 

I'm really not the expert here and don't sell them other than PRO BOOST which is a good octane improver.

 

1986 or not, the AA is not an oil company and I believe has to act in all cases on behalf of its Members.

 

Damage is not the issue, it's the claims that are the issue, there are no benefits so why pay for it is the gist of the article I think you'll find.

 

Mobil 1 5w-50, seems expensive and as a point of note an odd grade, 5w-50 is a non-seller most people opt for 5w-40 or 10w-40 or 10w-50/60. I'm guessing Mobil has a stockpile and needs a shed to move it. Still many thousands will buy it as it will look good on Asdas shelves and the label will attract them like flys - suited for their car or not, you'll see plenty of escorts running on this soon then -LOL!

 

Cheers

Simon

Hmm,

 

Paul C first.

 

I'm not really up on bike oils and don't stock the Mobil ones, only Silkolene which we have always found to be top notch. Their electrosyntec technology is truly clever stuff. So I wouldn't like to comment.

 

Mobil 1, good stuff yes but POA not ester which I would always favour for its clear benefits over POA's.

 

 

cheers simon.

 

ps - MB = Mercedes Benz!! i dont do bikes either ;) :D

Hmm, 1986 or not, the AA is not an oil company and I believe has to act in all cases on behalf of its Members.[/b]

 

yes but did the aa fund the research themselves, eveytime someone does a study of something, you have to really find out who funded the tests whether its medicine, food, fags, booze or whatever!!!

 

Damage is not the issue, it's the claims that are the issue, there are no benefits so why pay for it is the gist of the article I think you'll find.

 

 

well all these horror stories of it gumming up oil filters and blocking oilways, certainly isnt going to prevent damage is it?

it seems if it aint good enough for airplanes then maybe a z aint

to hot with it in

 

Two major airplane engine manufacturers, Avco Lycoming and Teledyne Continental, came up with the same findings. "we've tried every additive, and for the most part they're worthless."

 

A number of research studies have also found that Teflon-based additives add no benefit and in many cases actually harm engines

 

General Motors has issued an internal bulletin to it's dealers warning against the use of teflon-based oil additives in GM engines. In the bulletin, GM warns about the problems with accelerated wear after the use of PTFE additives

 

also a quick search finds these links

 

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1996/07/slick.htm

 

http://www.swedishbricks.net/faq/oilsfilters.html#slick

 

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/toyota-faq/RAV4/section-46.html

 

http://www.swedishbricks.net/faq/turbo.html

 

http://www.oilexpress.com/docs/faqs.htm#9

 

http://skepdic.com/slick50.html

 

http://xcelplus.com/qlube.htm

PaulC,

 

My apoligies for that, I should have gone to bed.

 

Got home at 1.00am yesterday evening having seen the excellent Mr Jamie Cullem and should have gone to bed rather than trying to answer the 60+ emails recieved since 5.30pm!

 

I've been on Mobils website this morning and pulled down the technical data sheets which give the tech differences as follows:

 

Super S 10w-40

Synthetic blend (in other words semi or part syn)

ACEA A2,B2,A3,B3

API SL,SJ,CF

VI Index 157

Mercedes 229.1

 

Synt S 5w-40

Synthetic (fully syn)

ACEA A3,B3,B4

API SJ,SL,CF

VI Index 175

Mercedes 229.3

 

The differences in reality are the following:

 

The 10w-40 is an older spec oil and a semi-syn, the 5w-40 is a newer fully syn oil with a newer MB spec.

 

The main things to note here are: (and they are no surprise when comparing fully vs semi-synthetic)

 

The Fully has a significantly higher VI Index which is the measure of the oils resistance to thinning down with temperature. Fully syns (at least good ones) will always be better when hot, they are more stable.

 

The gains for the car owner here are important as the 5w will circulate better when cold as it is thinner than the 10w. The upper viscosity of 40 is the same but the fully synthetic is better as indicated by the VI index.

 

The reasons for the change are probably twofold:

 

1) The 10w-40 is an older spec and doesn't meet the demands of the new engines calling for a 229.3 but the older cars calling for 229.1 will benefit from using the fully syn as it meets and exceeds their requirements.

 

2) MB are playing it safe and uprating their oils to ensure that all requirements are met with one oil rather than two.

 

Lastly, as this oil (5w-40) is for more than one OEM, the oil has been uprated for BMW, VW etc as it carries their more up to date specs as well.

 

I hope this helps,

 

Cheers

Simon

ah ok, cool. so i'll be getting a fully synth oil for free in my car now then :D.

 

how much better would mobil 1 be compared to the mobil synt s then??

 

weve also got another new oil to stock :rolleyes: a low ash oil for new euro4 diesel engines - mb spec 229.31 - any info on that??

PaulC,

 

It's a question of taste and cost, do you really need a 0w? It is too thin for some engines and you can be storing up for later problems.

 

The new D grade, what's it called and I'll check it.

 

Cheers

Simon

not sure on the name - iv got to contact Mobil next week.

 

I dont use Mobil 1 in mine, was just wondering if there are really that much more benefits over the Synt S.

 

weve always stocked Super S which is semi, & Mobil 1. just now were upping the min standard oil to a fully synth, is there much difference??

 

ive always used Mobil S with an oil change every 3K miles (costs me nowt ;)) now i'll be using the new Synt S!

 

many of our cars (turbo & kompressor engines, + AMG versions) have to have Mobil 1 as standard tho

Hi Simon

 

What are your views on Millers XFS 5w40 and Shell Helix Ultra 5w40 fully synthetics?

 

Richard :)

PaulC, if you drop the oil every 3000 miles a 10w-40 is fine, its well within the life of this oil which is around 9000-12000 miles.

 

I'm sure you'll find the 5w-40 will last longer in the engine as it's a fully so if you intend to use it, keep it there for a minimum of 6000 miles.

 

Richard,

 

Difficult to comment really as I've never stocked Shell or Millers. I would be happy using Shell but based on Millers prices, I wonder about the quality, the first post here may be relevant to their oils but without the data it's difficult to say for sure.

I'll try to speak to some technical bods on monday and see if they have any data or experience of these oils.

 

They're popular in some circles but I think it comes down to price.

 

Cheers

Simon

PaulC, if you drop the oil every 3000 miles a 10w-40 is fine, its well within the life of this oil which is around 9000-12000 miles.

 

I'm sure you'll find the 5w-40 will last longer in the engine as it's a fully so if you intend to use it, keep it there for a minimum of 6000 miles.

 

 

cheers!! thats pretty much what iv been saying all along on here!! ;) :D

OK, let's try a little exercise assuming I can get all the appropriate data sheets off the internet for the companies I don't deal with!

 

If everyone can list here the Oil they use (Make and Grade) I will do an exercise for the Club.

 

I'll compare the Viscosity Index, Flash Point and Pour Point on all these oils and publish the results here including the relevance of these measurements for you.

 

Then we'll be able to have a proper debate on the merits of each one.

 

Service, my pleasure!

 

Cheers

Simon

Ummm Mobil 1 15/50 in mine at the moment :)

OK, let's try a little exercise assuming I can get all the appropriate data sheets off the internet for the companies I don't deal with!

 

If everyone can list here the Oil they use (Make and Grade) I will do an exercise for the Club.

 

I'll compare the Viscosity Index, Flash Point and Pour Point on all these oils and publish the results here including the relevance of these measurements for you.

 

Then we'll be able to have a proper debate on the merits of each one.

 

Service, my pleasure!

 

Cheers

Simon

 

That would be really good Simon. I am currently running the Z on Triple R 5w 40. Gotta say your posts have made interesting reading. I'll probably be using different oil next time.

 

Jase

I'll wait a bit longer as I need some more replies here first.

 

Cheers

Simon

Morris 10W-50 synth

So far I've used:

 

Shell Helix Fully Synth 15W-50

Mobil 1 motorport 15W-50

Castrol RS 0W-40 (to see if it made any diiference to tappet noise)

Castrol RS 10W-60 - from many recommendations on this site.

AlexC

 

Interesting collection there!

 

Try Silkolene PRO S 10w-50, I guarantee you won't be dissapointed.

 

Cheers

Simon

 

Tech data is here http://www.opieoils.co.uk/lubricants.htm

Simon,

What are your recommendations for Z gear boxes and for a plate type LSD.

I've been using redline MT90 in the box but haven't done the diff oil yet as I'm a bit worried about changing the lockup characteristics.

Cheers

Ian,

 

There are different recommendations depending on whether you car is a Turbo or Twin Turbo.

 

The recommended oils must meet GL4 spec and can be one of the following depending on year and model.

 

80w-90 Mineral oil

75w-90 Semi syn

75w-90 Fully syn (twin turbo only)

 

Would recommend you look at Silkolene Syn 5 data sheet here:

 

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/lubricants.htm

 

Hope this helps,

 

Cheers

Simon

Just posted this in response to a question on another car forum that I advise.

 

Thought it may make good reading here!

 

Redline.

 

It may be best that all Redline fans close their ears or look away at this point, you may not like what you read!

 

Some basics first.

 

A good oil must be quite low in viscosity even in the cold, so that it gets around the engine in a fraction of a second on start-up. On the other hand, it must also protect engine components (piston rings for example) at temperatures up to 300 deg C without evaporating or carbonising, and maintain oil pressure.

 

Unmodified thin oils simply can't manage this balancing act. The answer is to use a mixture of thin oil and temperature sensitive polymer, so as the thin oil gets even thinner with increasing temperatures as the engine warms up, the polymer expands and fights back, keeping the viscosity at a reasonable level to hold oil pressure and film thickness on the bearings.

 

All oils have a viscosity index which is the number indicating that rate of change in viscosity of an oil within a given temperature range. Higher numbers indicate a low change, lower numbers indicate a relatively large change. The higher the number the better. This is one major property of an oil that keeps your bearings happy. These numbers can only be compared within a viscosity range (10w-40 vs 10w-40) but here it the important thing...............

 

They do not give an indication of how well the oil resists thermal breakdown! (The oil film tearing or shearing)

 

This is all down to a very important additive called a Viscosity Index improver and it is critical that this is shear stable.

 

VI improvers like all other things in life vary in quality and this is down to cost and availability.

 

In other words, an oil can look great on paper and make impressive claims but, unless all the components are of high quality it will fail to perform under the most arduous conditions.

 

I asked John Rowland the Silkolene/Fuchs Chief R&D Chemist for 40 years to give me his opinion on U.S. oils (including Redline) for

 

another car club and below was his reply:

 

 

 

Quote:

 

 

 

Simon,

 

 

 

Redline and all U.S. oils. The main problem with these is that all American Oils have "low grade" Viscosity improvers in them. Good ones are just not available in the states due to the fact that they are just not required for the majority of American engines.

 

 

 

The consequence of this is, although the oils look good on paper with high VI indexes etc they have low grade inprovers so they have a tendency to "shear down" causing a lack of back pressure.

 

 

 

For example, the oil you are using may be a 10w-40 but could be operating when hot a 20!

 

 

 

JR

 

 

 

Unquote:

 

 

 

I was intrigued by Johns answer and wanted to know how he knew it was the case in the U.S. that good quality VI improvers were not available. His reply was as follows:

 

 

 

Quote:

 

 

 

We have found it is impossible to source shear stable VI improvers

 

in the U.S.A. even for ready money!

 

 

 

Unquote:

 

 

 

Bear in mind here that Fuchs/Silkolene is the largest independent Lube Oil Manufacturer in the World and has facilities in the U.S.

 

 

 

So, there you have it, another expensive oil that is not all it's cracked up to be!

 

 

 

Mis-information abounds in the oil world and looking behind the marketing hype and claims is impossible unless of course you are a chemist and able to look deep into the oils make-up which neither you nor I can do!

 

Cheers

Simon

Cheers Simon, this is interesting reading.

Hi Simon another question for ya?

 

If I ran a good quality thermostatically controlled oil cooler, could I then run a 0-40 or 5-40 oil, as it would protect the engine on start up and not require a thicker oil for higher temp protection!

 

Or is the higher viscousity oil needed for localised hotspots within the engine?

 

Also the diff in the 300 is a viscous LSD, it is recommended that we use 80-90 as from the manufacturer. I notice that many synthetic diff oils are 75-90, would this have an effect on how the diff works, as isn't the viscosity of the oil important in an Viscous LSD?