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I want to make a statement about Stevens 300zx. I have deliberately not commented on his thread, initially out of respect to him as he fully deserves the sympathy he has received, and I did not want to cloud his thread, and latterly because I was aware this issue was to be discussed at the AGM.

I want to point out that I am not a car dealer, just an enthusiast like the rest of you, and someone who had some spare cash and thought it would be a good idea to get some clean cars in from japan to help fellow members and new potential owners get into Z ing.

I have in the past 3 years brought over 15 cars and 13 of them have followed my tried and trusted format. Where I buy the car, take all of the risk, and when it arrives pay for everything that needs doing before I place it for sale, and then take any profit or loss after the sale. This involves probably not seeing any return on my money for at least 6 months

Just twice have I offered to do things differently to try and help others save some money on costs and twice this has backfired. The difference being that they decide which car to go for, how much to spend, and pay up front once the car is won. I take a fee for doing all of the admin, my time and fuel, collecting the car from the docks and delivering to wherever.

Steven contacted me with a specific specification in mind, and initially was looking at a car he had seen on a Japanese Dealers site. He asked me if I could find out more about the car, and get some better pictures. I spent the next few days trying to get what he had asked and eventually got loads of pictures and a better description for him. He wanted me to try to negotiate a better price with the seller. In the meantime one had come up on the auction website and I mentioned this to Steven. Showed him the pictures that were available and got a translation of the auction sheet for him from the export company I use in Japan

Interior C, first registered December 1996, 5-speed manual gearbox, AC, power seat, power windows, original alloy wheels, one owner, fully repainted from unknown colour to white, only exterior has been repainted, paintwork uneven, steering wheel worn, driver's seat has 10 centimetre cut et cetera, driver's seat sagging, part of tonneau cover worn and cracked, wheels scratched, scratches and dents, roof and bonnet painted in different colour, paintwork uneven on roof and bonnet, rear wiper missing, other marks as per map

Steven discussed the pro’s and cons with me, and told me that he had some new seats and wheels so the issues with the current ones didn’t matter. I told him that I could get a local body shop who I use to paint the bonnet and roof back to white for him for a cash deal of £300. At no time in our correspondence did I say anything like, Go for this one or any other words that would encourage him to spend his money on this particular car, and this was because it was not for me to decide on what and how much he should spend his money on.

What was pretty clear from the translation and other info was that this was a late model with no rust and very low mileage a very solid foundation for a great car indeed

Steven decided he wanted to go for this one and set his limit that he wanted to spend. I said I would place that amount for him.

Prior to the auction Steven contacted me and said he had seen the same car with a different auction sheet and what did I think. I told him that I would have that translated as well, and this is what came back

The main difference seems to be that on the car map today there is some Japanese written on the roof and on the bonnet which says "different colour". The previous one shows lots of dots on the left front and right front doors, and this one still shows dots but they are written in more faintly. The other one shows U2 on the side steps which this one does not. This one shows medium cracks on the rear reflector, which the other one does not. When I look at cars in the auction myself, even U2 can be quite hard to see, so it is not too surprising to me that these inspectors have noticed some slightly different issues at that kind of level. What I would do is I would combine the information from both and use that to make a judgement

I passed this information on to Steven and asked him what he wanted to do. He said that he still wanted to go ahead with the bid. The auction was around 5am if I remember correctly so I got up to see if Steven had won the car. I received a message from Japan stating that we had the highest bid, but the car had not reached the reserve. I contacted Steven and asked him what he would like to do. He decided that he would make a larger offer and so I presented this to the export company. They came back a while later saying the offer had been refused

I told Steven I was surprised by this particularly because of the paint issue and also mentioned that if no one else came up with the reserve the car would probably be back on auction within a week. Steven decided to have one more go at winning the car with a second offer, and asked me what we should do if this was refused. I said that I felt we should walk away and he agreed. As it happens his offer was accepted

I want to stress at this point that Steven has seen exactly what I had seen, read exactly what I had read before deciding to place a bid. Nothing was withheld from him, and all of his questions received a timely response from me.

Prior to the car being shipped, the export company took around 30 photo’s of the car, and emailed them to me. I forwarded them on to Steven immediately and he was really happy with them and the car.

When I collected the car from the docks I didn’t really have time to examine it as I was on a time limit having already collected one earlier, so I loaded it on to the trailer and drove it straight to the garage I use for Fog Light and MOT purposes, unloaded it and took the trailer home, drove back to find that Steven had arrived and was looking over the car. We looked at the white paintwork and it was not good at all. Steven’s descriptions of it are accurate, it looked very poor and looked to have been hand sprayed without much attempt to mask certain areas. The rest you all know about.

No one could have predicted the paintwork would have been so bad, nothing either of had seen in pictures showed this . the auction sheet showed ‘uneven paintwork’ without going into any more detail, so it was not obvious to anyone.

I am truly distraught for Steven as I know how much he wanted this to be his dream car. I realise he wants someone to blame for this and I clearly am the first choice, but the fact remains that if the translation had said very poor hand painted, instead of uneven paintwork, then I suspect both of us wouldn’t be talking about this as there would have been NO BID

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Well it's good to hear your side of the story and it reminds me of what was once said about divorce - There's his truth, her truth and The Truth

 

If you can get the the paint fixed for £300 as you say, why don't you do that and then resell it and refund stephen ? That would seem to be a win win situation that everyone would welcome

From what I have read £300 is not going to come close to what is needed to get this car to a good standard, it will need a lot of preperation of the bodywork and respraying together with trim which I guess would cost a lot. It is a very unfortunate situation but good to hear both sides of the deal.

Reading about issues like this however they came around has made me one very cautious individual when looking for another Z.

The longer time goes on the more ones there are with issues be they in the UK already or over in Japan. The good ones are naturally becoming harder to find. At least this one sounds like it has a sound body and no rust which is a positive I guess. Lesson to everyone dont import cars where it states "uneven paintwork" unless you accept that you may be in for anything from a little bit to a lot of work to get it to a good standard unless you are not fussed and have plans for a colour change or other work on it. Where it gets difficult is when you factor cost into the equation too, for X price should someone reasonably expect minimal work or extensive work. It is so hard to tell with auction vehicles in this example and at the end of the day it is an auction so buyer beware. It is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

A very unfortunate experience for everyone involved apart from the seller in Japan. Would they know its a foreign buyer bidding? If they knew people had a trusted pair of eyes on the ground in Japan looking atr the car in that condition would a lower offer been accepted. We will never know.

  • Author
Well it's good to hear your side of the story and it reminds me of what was once said about divorce - There's his truth, her truth and The Truth

 

If you can get the the paint fixed for £300 as you say, why don't you do that and then resell it and refund stephen ? That would seem to be a win win situation that everyone would welcome

 

Sorry I didn't make myself clear. Steven wanted the bonnet and roof painted white, as they were currently black. The £300 was to pain those two items

I’ve been quite vocal on this as I’ve had history with importers so it’s struck a nerve! I’m glad you decided to post a thread and put your side across. Can I just pull you up on this bit...

 

I have in the past 3 years brought over 15 cars and 13 of them have followed my tried and trusted format. Where I buy the car, take all of the risk, and when it arrives pay for everything that needs doing before I place it for sale...

 

... In the meantime one had come up on the auction website and I mentioned this to Steven.

 

May I ask why this car wasn’t treated and purchased with your normal tried and tested format? I’m just wondering what was different in this situation.

How was this car graded a 3.5 ???

I for one wouldn't ever be able to trust the Grading system if this is anything to go by. I think if I ever do decide to import a car, I'll make a holiday of it and visit Japan to pick out my own car from the likes of Z32 Proshop Zone.

Edited by Richie K

  • Author
I’ve been quite vocal on this as I’ve had history with importers so it’s struck a nerve! I’m glad you decided to post a thread and put your side across. Can I just pull you up on this bit...

 

 

 

May I ask why this car wasn’t treated and purchased with your normal tried and tested format? I’m just wondering what was different in this situation.

 

Certainly Joel. Usually I pick the cars myself, and in effect the car is for me. So I pay everything the export company, the shipping, VAT and Tax, MOT and Fog and anything else that needs doing. It is a safe process because the risk is all mine. My money is tied up for 6 months. So naturally I try to make a profit when I sell the car, that in turn helps pave the way for the next car and so on. On two occasions I have offered to get a car on behalf of someone where they pay everything up front, but of course because the car is not mine, I don't make a profit so in theory the buyer saves money by just having me do the admin and donkey work. They pay up front, and I just take a fee for the work, nowhere near what I would look to make if the car was mine. Hope that makes sense. I will say though that I will never offer this to anyone again

Quick question, If you've imported the car and charged a "fee" for it, did this include servicing it and getting it MOT'd and SVA'd?? Or was it just to get it onto UK shores??

I ask because if you took responsibility for putting the car on the road, then shouldn't you shoulder some of the blame ??

 

Not having a go, just looking for some clarification that's not mentioned in your statement

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How was this car graded a 3.5 ???

I for one wouldn't ever be able to trust the Grading system if this is anything to go by. I think if I ever do decide to import a car, I'll make a holiday of it and visit Japan to pick out my own car from the likes of Z32 Proshop Zone.

 

Richie,The Grading is subjective and it is quite possible that two different auction houses would grade the car differently. it's the description that is supposed to be the thing you would go on. I have been told by the export company that a grade 3 would usually have things like Noisy or oily engine, or smoky exhaust etc, and grade 2 would have that plus corrosion

Hi Gary, when you import cars for yourself you say all the risk is on your shoulders, did Steven understand all the risk was on his shoulders with this car? Sounds like the paint condition was under described, is there anyway you could bring this up with the auction house? Also, the other issue was the garage who prepares these cars for UK roads not doing their job properly, will you continue to use them?

  • Author
Quick question, If you've imported the car and charged a "fee" for it, did this include servicing it and getting it MOT'd and SVA'd?? Or was it just to get it onto UK shores??

I ask because if you took responsibility for putting the car on the road, then shouldn't you shoulder some of the blame ??

 

Not having a go, just looking for some clarification that's not mentioned in your statement

 

The Fee was for all of the admin, the many hours spent on the purchase, and emails etc, going to the docks, collecting the car, and delivering it to wherever the purchaser wanted it. I offered to have the car MOT'd and have the fog light fitted and that was made clear that was an extra charge that the buyer would pay directly to the garage. I would also arrange for all of the registration docs to be completed and sent to the DVLA, again the fees payable by the purchaser.

  • Author
Hi Gary, when you import cars for yourself you say all the risk is on your shoulders, did Steven understand all the risk was on his shoulders with this car? Sounds like the paint condition was under described, is there anyway you could bring this up with the auction house? Also, the other issue was the garage who prepares these cars for UK roads not doing their job properly, will you continue to use them?

 

I agree that the condition was underdescribed or certainly not explicit enough, and therein lies the entire problem. Buying any car from an auction is a risk, and generally the cars come through as described and in excellent condition. Even the cars that I have bought have had issues that had to be fixed. One of them for example cost me £2000 to correct and I made a loss on it when it was sold. As for the garage I use I will make a statement about that later. Thanks for your input

The Fee was for all of the admin, the many hours spent on the purchase, and emails etc, going to the docks, collecting the car, and delivering it to wherever the purchaser wanted it. I offered to have the car MOT'd and have the fog light fitted and that was made clear that was an extra charge that the buyer would pay directly to the garage. I would also arrange for all of the registration docs to be completed and sent to the DVLA, again the fees payable by the purchaser.

 

So it was just to land it on UK shores so. Do you feel the garage took advantage of the chap?, considering they didn't even change the oil??

  • Author
So it was just to land it on UK shores so. Do you feel the garage took advantage of the chap?, considering they didn't even change the oil??

 

Steven contacted me and told me to tell them to immediately stop work on what they were doing, which I did. I don't know how far they had got with anything, and he arranged for the collection of the car the next day

When ive looked at importers before the highly recommended ones have agents in Japan to inspect the cars before any bids are done and also take videos of the cars before they are shipped etc. This does come with a price tag of 500 pound and for some would be the peace of mind that they would want. Ive found Japanese auction sheets to be very good before when ive imported but would never consider anything under a grade 4. There a few few auction sites like Tradecarview which seem like some bargains are on there however it is always a risk on what you get. My latest vehicle i was looking to import i ended up buying one in the UK as i trust my mechanical inspection more plus the once great savings that could be had importing do not seem to be there anymore.

Certainly Joel. Usually I pick the cars myself, and in effect the car is for me. So I pay everything the export company, the shipping, VAT and Tax, MOT and Fog and anything else that needs doing. It is a safe process because the risk is all mine. My money is tied up for 6 months. So naturally I try to make a profit when I sell the car, that in turn helps pave the way for the next car and so on. On two occasions I have offered to get a car on behalf of someone where they pay everything up front, but of course because the car is not mine, I don't make a profit so in theory the buyer saves money by just having me do the admin and donkey work. They pay up front, and I just take a fee for the work, nowhere near what I would look to make if the car was mine. Hope that makes sense. I will say though that I will never offer this to anyone again

 

You picked the car out for Steve though? From an outside point of view, it comes across that because you had no money tied up in the car, you have relinquished all responsibility? Everything has been done the same as your normal method, except it was somebody else’s money.

 

Maybe I’m missing something but wouldn’t the right thing to do, be to offer Steve his money back and take it on the chin as you normally would? Or offer an alternative that doesn’t just leave Steve hanging out to dry.

 

As for doing this as a hobby and openly admitting profit margins involved, I think it would be wise to get yourself properly setup as a VAT registered business or Sole Trader etc based on what options are available to your circumstance. I personally didn’t realise you wasn’t an “official” business and that would worry me when buying and possibly slightly misleading when advertising as an official club importer, when actually its no real difference to a sold as seen purchase from any other member.

Hi Gary, when you import cars for yourself you say all the risk is on your shoulders, did Steven understand all the risk was on his shoulders with this car? Sounds like the paint condition was under described, is there anyway you could bring this up with the auction house? Also, the other issue was the garage who prepares these cars for UK roads not doing their job properly, will you continue to use them?

 

I agree that the condition was underdescribed or certainly not explicit enough, and therein lies the entire problem. Buying any car from an auction is a risk, and generally the cars come through as described and in excellent condition. Even the cars that I have bought have had issues that had to be fixed. One of them for example cost me £2000 to correct and I made a loss on it when it was sold. As for the garage I use I will make a statement about that later. Thanks for your input

 

That’s a fair point and the question remains unanswered, did Steven fully understand that the risk was all his on this occasion?

  • Author
That’s a fair point and the question remains unanswered, did Steven fully understand that the risk was all his on this occasion?

 

Joel, you would have to let Steven answer that. All I can say is that we both had the same information about the car. The description and the pictures. For example when the car arrived and the MOT was being done, the coolant leak was found. This was not on the auction sheet at all, so neither of us knew about it, but it still had to be done and Steven was prepared to pay for it to be fixed, so is that understanding there is risk involved?

I'm struggling to understand as to why you'd have steered him toward it. Even when I saw those initial grainy photos, I had big questions marks about it. As a responsible person, I'd have steered him well away from it and sharpish irrespective of how this business transaction went about. The initial photos showed overspray everywhere and a worn out interior. Alarm bells must have been ringing?

 

I would have immediately suggested waiting for a better one and would have refused to go any further with it.

 

That's before we even get on to the subject of how useless and incompetent the garage was that it was taken to before Jim rescued it.

 

Appreciate this may have been different to your normal transactions but you still have to put your name to it and an element of responsibility still lies on your shoulders?

Edited by Funkysi

I guess mods can delete this if they feel this isn't the time or place, but I wanted to speak out. I posted something similar in Stevens thread, but feel it's worth posting here as well as this thread is focusing on Garry.

 

As the subtly alluded to "other" one, I would like to offer my experience as a comparison.

 

No I was never told that as I found the car and was paying for things up front whilst importing that, in Garry's view, I was bearing all of the responsibility for the condition of the car. That was never explained to me nor alluded to at all. In fact I have remained ignorant of that fact up until this very moment when I read this thread. Whether Steven got the same treatment I obviously cannot say.

 

BUT as has been said by me before on this forum, Garry put a fair amount of effort into finding out about my cars history once the vin problem was spotted, and presumably paid for the government checks and translations himself as it didn't cost me anything. And, again said before, did in my case offer to buy the car back off me for the total price I had paid to him.

 

So in my case, you can't say fairer than that. It was my choice not to take him up on the offer once I had spoken to the DVLA (and the pound had crashed against the yen!)

 

I didn't use his garage so can't comment on that.

As for doing this as a hobby and openly admitting profit margins involved, I think it would be wise to get yourself properly setup as a VAT registered business or Sole Trader etc based on what options are available to your circumstance. I personally didn’t realise you wasn’t an “official” business and that would worry me when buying and possibly slightly misleading when advertising as an official club importer, when actually its no real difference to a sold as seen purchase from any other member.

 

This!

  • Author

The only reason I am listed as a trader here on the forum is because when I first got a couple of these over in 2015 I was told that if I wanted to use the forum as a vehicle of the cars then I should become a trader on the forum as it wouldn't be fair to other traders. I was told this by a couple of members of the committee. I was not too keen to do it, as I hadn't actually sold any at that point, but was allowed to list two cars and then re-evaluate the situation at a later stage. Two members, one on the committee also mentioned the use of the word Official Importer for the club, so in the end I decided to do it so that I didn't break the rules and it sounded good to be able to say that. I have had 15 of them over 3 years so that average out at 5 per year, hardly what a dealer would need in order to make a successful business venture . Actually 3 of them are here and not sold as yet so thats only 12 sold in 3 years and two of them were requests that have gone badly. So the actual number of sales in 3 years where I have personally bought cars number just 10

I think it’s a good thing for the club to have an official import agent and would personally welcome such activity. However, I would assume this would come with a certain level of responsibility and liability from the trader in much the same way all of the bigger agents act. That’s where I feel it could’ve been slightly misleading as, in this case it’s gone horribly wrong, leaving the buyer to have to fork out several thousand pounds more than he signed up for to get what he thought he was paying for.

 

As you have mentioned, you do usually practice this responsibility as you won’t advertise the official price until the car is in the UK and in a presentable condition, that’s good and we’ve seen some great cars. With this situation I’m not sure how it should be any different though, in fact it’s more important to react swiftly knowing that a customers money is invested and negative feedback is looming.

 

Do you feel this is a fair statement: If you had imported this car with your own money, you would have 2 options; One option would be to sell the car at considerable loss knowing it would be hard to sell on for the OTR price it owes you. Or option two would be to pay for the defects to be rectified and then advertise the car for a price accordingly to minimise losses, break even or maybe more.

  • Author
I think it’s a good thing for the club to have an official import agent and would personally welcome such activity. However, I would assume this would come with a certain level of responsibility and liability from the trader in much the same way all of the bigger agents act. That’s where I feel it could’ve been slightly misleading as, in this case it’s gone horribly wrong, leaving the buyer to have to fork out several thousand pounds more than he signed up for to get what he thought he was paying for.

 

As you have mentioned, you do usually practice this responsibility as you won’t advertise the official price until the car is in the UK and in a presentable condition, that’s good and we’ve seen some great cars. With this situation I’m not sure how it should be any different though, in fact it’s more important to react swiftly knowing that a customers money is invested and negative feedback is looming.

 

Do you feel this is a fair statement: If you had imported this car with your own money, you would have 2 options; One option would be to sell the car at considerable loss knowing it would be hard to sell on for the OTR price it owes you. Or option two would be to pay for the defects to be rectified and then advertise the car for a price accordingly to minimise losses, break even or maybe more.

 

Joel

 

I understand what you are saying completely, but to me its not the same at all. Situation one is I select a car that I would like to bid on. I bid , I win and have the car shipped. I pay for everything to be done in order to have the car ready for sale. In short everything is my decision from start to finish

Situation 2 . someone comes to me and says can you help me get a car. I say yes and show them what is available based on what they are looking for. I get them all of the information that they need in order to be able to make a decision. They make the decision, based on what they see and read. They are choosing the car and therefore I am not going to make a profit off them because I am just helping show them whats available, and I am doing that because I want the person to get the car as cheaply as possible.

 

Now if I had said yes I will buy the car, I will have it all done ready for sale but it will cost you more because I will add a profit onto it for the outlay and the time taken before I see my money back, that would be the same as situation one, and you would be absolutely correct, but this is different.

 

There was nothing wrong with the process of this transaction whatsoever. Everything done exactly as I said it would be done, and everything had gone smoothly up to the point when we both saw the car.

 

I feel terrible for Steve, he is a good guy and did not deserve to have this happen to him, and I have been thinking of something I can do to help him out, and I have today emailed him with an idea, but this has nothing to do with anyone else on this forum, just he and I

 

I also want to point out that I am not hiding away from this issue like a certain trader who refused to participate when he was being accused of things. I stand up and I am here and if everyone wants to take pot shots at me then fine!!

 

Joel you are a great ambassador for this club and I respect you , but I wish you would try to see both sides. Sorry for rambling

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