Anyone know the breakdown of a typical car of the relative masses of different 'bits'.

 

What's the heaviest 'bit'/section/component ?

 

The engine ?

 

The chassis ?

very philosophical, Nelson.

 

Impossible to answer unless someone defines what is meant by "bit" ;)

 

Are we trying to find the heaviest bit and then throw it away?

 

Then again, shouldn't all bits mass the same? 0111010111?

OK then....can someone list the basis parts....

 

Like - engine, chassis, body panels, gearbox, wheels, glass, brakes, drive shaft, interior stuff, seats, fuel tank etc. etc.

 

I guess this varies a lot from car to car, but does anyone have any rough ideas about this. I am keen to know, I'm not trying to start an argument or nething. Honest

;)

 

Someone said a 300 engine only weighs a little over 200kg ? Where is the other 1300+ kg ?:confused:

Actually, that's not a bad question. AFAIK the 300ZX is the only important car on the planet. But OTOH if you want to look into this seriously, perhaps you should suggest the "typical" car as a baseline?

 

Not being awkward (well i probably am but perhaps I should have said not being argumentative), but you can see the answers to your q will be horribly different if someone thinks an Elise is typical, or a ZX or a Bentley or a .......

 

An Escort is probably horribly typical but I don't want to waste bandwidth on this heap of deleted :D

OK to make it simpler...anyone know the mass of all the metal panels on a Z...or any other car ?

 

Also....how much lighter is Carbon-fibre than steel ?

Dont know the difference but I know that it is a lot lighter.

stripping down a car can become addictive

 

 

:) I got carried away with my zx300

I know you all got annoyed when I went on about mass reduction previously, but if the car shouldn't be altered, how come so many of you are keen to mod the engine ?!

There's more to go wrogn there than reducing mass surely, and it's more technical.

The engine AND mass of the car are BOTH important areas to work on if you want to make the car better.

 

It all boils down to cost at the end of the day, and what sacrifices (if any) you want to make to enhance any one aspect of the car. Sometimes mods are win, win - othertimes it's a compromise and you have to decide on your priorities.

 

I would never want to lose the ICE, electric windows, HiCAS, air con etc. to reduce mass.

Woof woof! Bark!

 

Nice bone! Like my bone! Don't want to let go.....! Rrrrrrrrrrrrr! Get off my bone!

 

Woof!

With mass reduction you have to go the whole hog and strip everything, this is my argument

 

I weigh around 71 kilos i think, so I will get the same performance as a person who weights 80kilos but has removed 9 kilos of weight from their car. Also an extra passenger, say an extra 54 kilos, and then 72 litres of fuel at around 72kilos

 

So if I am on my own with 5kilos of fuel and about to drag a stock zed but this zed has a full tank, passenger and they weigh 80 kilos,

 

That means they would have to strip 130kilos from there car to get the same advantage. What about if I leave my targa blinds at home (ignoring drag coeeficient)

 

I mean if you are going to strip a car you don't start with the mechanics, you start with the interior, take out all the seats, spare wheel, tools ash tray holdings, put in a light ricaro seet one of only,

 

 

by then you've got a car which may be .2seconds quicker but the only benifit is you don't have to sit in the car for .2 seconds longer because it is so uncomfortable.

 

Beside these cars are finely balenced, if you start removing significant chunks of metal from around the chassis you are going to alter the way the car is balenced, and ultimately make it unsafe.

 

Besides even when you have spent hours reducing the weight, someone with an exhaust, iduction kit and ecu is going to come along and beat you.

Thats correct Mike IMHO!

David there is no substitute for more BHP,tell you what you strip your car fully down and replace with carbonfibre,then when I fit my hybrids and Nismo injectors I will race you.

I will bet you whatever you want,If you don't tune your Z and leave it stock,I WILL DESTROY YOUR CARBON DREAMS;)

Oh and I weigh well over 100kg:D.

These arguments are silly !

 

I never said reducing mass by itself would be better than increasing engine power. But, doing BOTH will give you an advantage.

 

Look at it this way - if you increase engine power by 100BHP and another guy does the same but also takes 200kg off the weight of the car - the other guy will have the equivalent of 113BHP + 353BHP [100 + 280 times 113%]. So he will have an equivalent power of 466BHP to your 380BHP, ie. a distinct advantage.

 

Also, the argument about if you weigh more and how much fuel's in your tank and what you had for lunch is a silly argument - you have to compare like for like !

That argument could be used to justify ANY car being any ridiculous weight !

Originally posted by Nelson MainFella

I know you all got annoyed when I went on about mass reduction previously, but if the car shouldn't be altered, how come so many of you are keen to mod the engine ?!

There's more to go wrogn there than reducing mass surely, and it's more technical.

 

Well thats what it looks like you said David?

I just said that it seems easier to me to mod the body and there's less to go wrong - I never said I wouldn't do it or that I don't think it's worth doing.

 

I only pointed this out because people who mod the engine were using arguments against modding the body which apply equally (or more so) to engine modding. Like those who said how can you do better than NTC in Japan with all their expertise and experience - but the car was not made with an unlimited budget, or to be superfast. There is plenty of room for improvement imho.

 

I'm in favour of engine modding AND mass reduction - but both have to be done sensibly.

 

In my eyes, the car doesn't HAVE to be as heavy as it is - this applies to most cars. I can't see the point in saying - "it's a GT tourer, therefore not the lightest of cars, therefore not worth lightening". Every car in every class is better when lightened (as long as this doesn't make it unsafe or affect the balance etc. etc.).

 

Planty of thought was given to mass reduction, but it was only taken so far due to costs.

 

I don't have an axe to grind about this, just wanting constructive dialogue about it.

Engine mods do the following...

 

1. Make car faster. GOOD

2. Put greater stresses on the engine and car BAD

3. Use more fuel (like for like driving) BAD

4. Incease UNreliability BAD

 

Mass reduction does the following...

 

1. Make car faster. GOOD

2. REDUCE stresses on engine and car GOOD

3. Use LESS fuel GOOD

4. Possibly increase relibility - probably negligible. (good)

5. Makes more use of available engine power. GOOD

6. Makes car more responsive. GOOD

 

 

Case closed !

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:D :D :D

Originally posted by Nelson MainFella

These arguments are silly !

 

 

Look at it this way - if you increase engine power by 100BHP and another guy does the same but also takes 200kg off the weight of the car - the other guy will have the equivalent of 113BHP + 353BHP [100 + 280 times 113%]. So he will have an equivalent power of 466BHP to your 380BHP, ie. a distinct advantage.

 

any ridiculous weight !

Ask yourself this whats easier to get, 100bhp or a 200kilogramme reduction in weight.

 

ill bet you my car its 100bhp.

to get 100bhp you ecu, exhaust intake ect, to take 200kilogrammes of, well lets see, im not sure anyone has even got near that on a street 300zx.

youd need to lose your seats, all the sound deadening, and you wont be near 200kilos.

 

And then again waht for, as this is a gt car not a lotus 7, if you want light weight go get another car.

Once again Warren you have completely missed my point lol:p

But you mean weight. Mass the amount of material in an object. If you get a metal bonet and a carbon fiber one exactly the same size they will have the same mass, becuase there is the same amont of material in both. Just that the carbon fiber one has less weight.

 

Yes reducing weight is in most cases better. But there is little you can do. You can replace panels, get thinner glass, which would cost you a packet, talking way over £5000 and just for the panels. The extra thin light weight glass is more expensive. The vast majority of the weight of the car is the steel shell which you can not change unless you get a tube chassis specially made for you which will cost you tens of thousands, for which cost you could make your car go over 200mph. And there is little you can do about the engine. You start changing the internals to lighter components you are, again, taking tens of thousands of pounds.

Err, much as it pains me to say this but:

 

Weight=mass times the acceleration due to gravity (mg)

 

Therefore, reducing mass is directly proportional to reducing weight. A metal bonnet and a carbon fibre one will have a very very different mass.

 

Sorry.

I don't think you can take enough weight off to make it worht the hassle,

 

and yes petrol in a tank is just as valid as removing the seats, but 20x easier to do (empty a tank in around 150miles at 7k lol)

 

Every one knows you have a valid point in power to weight ratio but I doubt there is anyone who would be bothered to do it on a road car. I don't think you can do it safely though, you will seriously mess with the weight distribution of a car, structual stresses will be different and the load on the engine will be different.

 

your suspension will shift about as well so you'd need new adjustable shox and a day on track to get the whole thing rebalenced.

 

Seriously nelson, you should sell the zed and invest in a westfield, people on westfield forums love nothing more than discussing pwer to weight distribution, different engines ect, and it will be a lot easier in the long run.

Ok Im doing some simple calculations,

 

 

car weighs 3480lbs

280bhp

 

1/4 mile time based on this = 14.34seconds

 

ok lets remove 400lbs (181kilos)

 

1/4 mile time = 13.77 seconds

 

 

now lets add 100bhp which isn't unreasonable.

 

1/4mile = 12.95

 

 

 

100bhp with 400lbs removed

 

1/4mile = 12.44

 

 

All based on power weight calculation, doesn't take into account the traction changes or balance changes.

The only reason to talk about mass is when you are talking about different gravitational pulls and the earths is constent. Unless you want to get into the whole granet/volcanic magnetic gravitational pull thing, but I really doubt that we will be driving out Z'd up a active volcano.

 

Another point. If we are talking about mass and weight. Take the car to the moon and it will be faster because, obvioulsy the lack of air, the weight of the car will be less becuase of the weaker grevity. The engine has less force pushing down on the car to compete with, making the car lighter and thus faster. However the mass of the car will remain the same. So the lighter weight of the car made it faster not the mass, which hasnt changed becuase mass is not effected by gravity.

 

Why does a car with a higher wing become slower than one with a low wing. The wind on the wing causes a pushing down force on the car makeing that part of the car heavier and this slower, but the mass is the same.

A low wing has little wind forcing the car down when moving and the car is lighter and thus faster.

 

When you are in a plate climbing steeply try lifting your legs. You need a lot of strength to move them. Why? Because they are heavier becuase of the extra gravitational pull on tham making them heavier. But the mass of your legs are the same.

 

So I am right saying that weight effects the car more than mass.

 

The Z is not driving in a weightless environment. If it was the mass would be everything. The Z has to compete with the gratiational pull of the earth which mass doesnt take into effect.

 

Stuart

It is easier to increase the power rather than reduce weight/mass because at the end of the day it`s your everyday car which you want to remain comfortable and enjoyable to drive.

If it was a drag car then you would strip it and mod it to get the maximum gain.

 

Nelson, you need to consider a bit more than the end result from modding/reducing weight and that is practicality.

 

Bob

Hi Stuart

 

No offence intended. I was just pointing out that I don't think Mr Mainfella is thinking of driving his car anywhere but on this planet. Although, nothing would surprise me.

 

Love and hugs all round

 

Mike

Mass and weight are the same in relative terms when you stay on one planet. W= mg. Therefore I don't think it matters which you use. Weight is what is really being considered I suppose, but mass is proportional to it.

 

I am thinking more of losing weight on my 200SX.

The other thing worth remembering is that when you get to a certain BHP (say 450) then increasing BHP after that becomes increasingly expensive.

 

If you take weight off a car, because you are affecting a ratio (power to weight), you get more for your money the higher the power of the engine ie. 10% of 600 is 60-----10% of 280 is 'only' 28-------> the weight/mass reduction has had over TWICE the affect on effective power of the more powerful car.

 

;)

 

Sure, adding power is cheaper initially when modding a stock engine, but afer a bit I bet mass reduction costs similar amounts to serious mods on the engine, without the disadvantages I mentioned before.

 

Maybe there is a limited potential for this, but I want to know what can be done for sensible money.