As we all know Z32 standard brakes suck, in my opinion they are the weakest link in the performance of a Z32, so the question is, Has anybody fitted the big Range Rover Brembo Calipers and discs to a Z32 ?

Also what about the Brembo 8 pot calipers that have become so affordable of late ? Failing any of the above what are the largest Brake discs readily available and for sensible money that can fit a Z32 ?

what size wheels are we talking? the most common brembo upgrades are from the r33/34 skylines (as they bolt straight on with no mods) but the mitsu evo's are also quite a popular choice (with locating bracket). my r33 calipers cost me 400quid for all 4 corners. the member 'apache' on here has some rather large aston martin brakes fitted and jimmytt has 911 brembos... other than that i think most others are special made kits such as k-sports etc, iirc beegeevinz has 356mm discs on the front of his with k-sports.

Hi mate,

 

Looked at the Range Rover items and decided they were to big to fit sensible wheels. I'm running 18's and it they wouldnt fit.

 

I went for 350Z discs, the brembo caliper cars have 324mm discs and they fill my wheels nicely and i've got Maserati branded brembo's to go on. Dont forget about the custom brackets, this was the bit that caught me out and I've had to have a set made from scratch.

 

A popular upgrade seems to be skyline or evo brembo's

 

Hope that helps a little, Rob

what size wheels are we talking? .

 

19inch Joely.............you should know........... ;-)

Hi mate,

 

Looked at the Range Rover items and decided they were to big to fit sensible wheels. I'm running 18's and it they wouldnt fit.

 

I went for 350Z discs, the brembo caliper cars have 324mm discs and they fill my wheels nicely and i've got Maserati branded brembo's to go on. Dont forget about the custom brackets, this was the bit that caught me out and I've had to have a set made from scratch.

 

A popular upgrade seems to be skyline or evo brembo's

 

Hope that helps a little, Rob

 

I can never find any FFS

Thanks Rob

 

I would have thought the Skyline or Evo calipers were not any improvement on the standard calipers as they are similar sized the Maserati calipers are one size up I seem to remember, they should be nice, presumably you have not suceeded in getting the 350 brake discs to distort then ?

 

Hi mate,

 

Looked at the Range Rover items and decided they were to big to fit sensible wheels. I'm running 18's and it they wouldnt fit.

 

I went for 350Z discs, the brembo caliper cars have 324mm discs and they fill my wheels nicely and i've got Maserati branded brembo's to go on. Dont forget about the custom brackets, this was the bit that caught me out and I've had to have a set made from scratch.

 

A popular upgrade seems to be skyline or evo brembo's

 

Hope that helps a little, Rob

19inch Joely.............you should know........... ;-)

 

aaah lol your the chap that bought your car from lee... well then you can stick some sizeable lumps under them old girls! imo it all depends what you want, rebuilt skyline calipers with new fluid, decent discs (324mm) and pads are plenty good enough even for the odd track use. for heavy track use you'll need 2 piece discs and some serious paddage!

 

though i understand that alot of people consider the brakes as part of the bling and styling concepts so try to squeeze as bigger gear under there as they can... when, as far as performance is concerned, they might not necessarily be any better. you should also consider the effects on the abs system when fitting mahoosive brakes as it will need to be disabled, then you run into potential insurance implications.

 

another thing id say with whatever brakes you go for is to watch the offset onto your tsw's... getting the brakes to fit inside the circumference of the wheel is one thing but clearing the spokes of the wheel can become a whole new battle!

do 350z calipers fit??

do 350z calipers fit??

 

fronts, yes... rears need some rather streesful modifications to fit! ask andy p.. he has a 350z setup

so in reality then you can just bolt the front calipers n discs straight on?

No idea mate, would think so as the 350z runs 18's I think, as said before its clearing the spokes thats the issue, small wheelspacers might be an option.

 

Get the brakes off that white import where you work and have a trial fit LOL

 

do 350z calipers fit??

Thanks Rob

 

I would have thought the Skyline or Evo calipers were not any improvement on the standard calipers as they are similar sized the Maserati calipers are one size up I seem to remember, they should be nice, presumably you have not suceeded in getting the 350 brake discs to distort then ?

 

the skyline calipers are quite a bit bigger than stock tt calipers, the evo ones are bigger still. oem fronts on a tt are something like 297mm... skyline brembos and 350z are 324mm. that said its not really the rotor size that makes the z32 brakes so bad... its the thermal properties of the caliper. it seems to hold the heat too much and cause lots of fade. the skyline brembos are a ten fold improvement over stock and are safe to run with abs.

so in reality then you can just bolt the front calipers n discs straight on?

 

yes you can just bolt the calipers n discs straight on (you will need the bolts for the calipers though. the z32 caliper bolts have a different thread pitch)... but its whether you can get your wheel back on that might cause issues. the 350z has a different caliper offset to the skyline and (im not 100% on this but) i think the 350z calipers make for a tighter clearance on the spokes.

Still waiting for the brackets mate, will let you know how I get on

 

Thanks Rob

 

I would have thought the Skyline or Evo calipers were not any improvement on the standard calipers as they are similar sized the Maserati calipers are one size up I seem to remember, they should be nice, presumably you have not suceeded in getting the 350 brake discs to distort then ?

right, cheers Joel. I have 19's on but as you say its the offset.How the fook does everyone work this out lol

No idea mate, would think so as the 350z runs 18's I think, as said before its clearing the spokes thats the issue, small wheelspacers might be an option.

 

Get the brakes off that white import where you work and have a trial fit LOL

 

LOL......if i put spacers on bud my car would look like a mini with fats on:)

Thanks Joely whilst you are spot on with the source of the car I have changed the wheels as the rears were only 8inches wide Lee fudged that bit....... lol

I am now using 9.5R and 8F but of course in 19's too

Thanks Joely whilst you are spot on with the source of the car I have changed the wheels as the rears were only 8inches wide Lee fudged that bit....... lol

I am now using 9.5R and 8F but of course in 19's too

 

very nice... a sensible mod id say for getting the power down safely. its the fronts that you will have fitment issues with. how much room, roughly, do you have between the oem calipers and the spokes, also bare in mind that the caliper will sit a fair amount out from its current location. if its tight at the mo, you may struggle with big calipers. prolly best to take a pic so other with similar setups can advise if they think it will clear. it might not be the end of the world as you may be able to space the wheels out a bit with some hubcentric bolt on spacers. luckily my wheels are shaped in such a way that i have a wealth of room for big brakes but i have 15mm spacers on it for a more aggresive front offset. currently running et20. find out what your offset is and we can advise...

Joely, what kind of ABS issues are we talking about, a mate has a monster AP set on his 968 and the ABS still works fine, only I don't fancy spending £2.5K on my brakes especially as I have quite a few calipers lying around.....

Joely, what kind of ABS issues are we talking about, a mate has a monster AP set on his 968 and the ABS still works fine, only I don't fancy spending £2.5K on my brakes especially as I have quite a few calipers lying around.....

 

ok... this post may seem a bit long winded and im not sure how technically minded you are but here is a copy n paste from another thread posted by JeffTT which i think gives a great lamens explanation of the considerations to be taken. i would definately read it before you commit so you understand the potential implications. other cars may have different abs systems and so operate differently but this is based on the z32 abs...

 

The tech answer to the question of how your zed abs system will react to larger calipers / discs is explained a little lower down , it is a bit of a read but well worth it if you want know the definitive answer to the question.

 

The real world solution

From the tech answer below it is clear that the abs system can be effected and not in a good way, however and this is crucial to remember when fitting a brake upgrade kit "just because it works on car xxx, it must work on your zed " approach, is way wrong. What you need to ensure is the brake upgrade kits is either designed with the characteristics of the original braking system taken into account to minimise the differences, or the donor car brake system has the same or very similar characteristics and in that way the ABS system WILL work as originally designed.

 

To this end upgrades such as the Nissan Skyline GTR 33/34 Brembo calipers and discs will work with the 300zx set up as the Pressure-Torque And Pressure-Volume Relationships ( explained below ) is compatible, however the Nissan 350z is not, after market kits designed as vehicle multifit are also rarely compatible.

 

One final word of warning, disconnecting or disabling ABS safety systems WILL effect your insurance and could in the event of a fatal accident leave you carrying the can!

 

Jeff TT

 

 

Definitions

ABS – Anti-lock Braking System – An electromechanical control system designed to monitor and influence wheel dynamics, and ultimately vehicle dynamics during braking manoeuvres. In order of priority, these systems are intended to enhance vehicle 1) stability, or the prevention of over steer 2) steer ability, or the prevention of under steer and 3) stopping distance. Typical systems consist of 3-4 wheel speed sensors, an ECU containing the algorithm processing the wheel speed information, a series of solenoid-driven valves, and a pump-motor subsystem which can be actuated to interrupt and release brake fluid pressure from the wheel-end brake components (calipers and such).

 

ABS Control In Super-Slow-Motion

In order to best explain how the ABS "depends" on the base braking system, let's have a look at a typical ABS event at the micro level – from the processing algorithm's perspective.

Say you are driving down the motorway at 75 MPH ( tut , tut ) when all of a sudden a lorry in front of you spills its load of water across all three lanes of traffic. Now, this alone would not be so bad, except the water is still sealed in large drums anyone of which would certainly make a mess of your zed, time to take evasive action.

Being the trained high-speed individual that you are, you immediately lift off the accelerator , dip the clutch (if your zed is a manual), and at the same time hit the brake pedal...but in the heat of the moment you hit it a little too hard!!

 

Previously the ABS ecu was hanging back watching the world go by, seeing a constant stream of 75 MPH signals from its four wheel speed sensors. Let’s call this "observation mode." Upon your application of the brake, however, the ABS snaps to attention, its antenna up, ready for action.

You have just hit the brake pedal after all, and who know what’s coming next.

After 50 milliseconds (it’s actually much faster than that – 7 to 10 milliseconds is typical – but it easier to work out) the ABS takes another snapshot of the wheel speed information in an attempt to figure out what's going on. This time the wheel speed sensors are all reporting a speed of 74 MPH. Doing a quick calculation, the ABS determines that in order to have slowed 1 MPH in a 50ms period the wheels must be decelerating at a rate of 0.91g’s. Because you are driving a sports car, the engineer who calibrated the system ‘taught’ the ABS that your car is capable of decelerating at this rate, so the ABS continues to hang back and watch the event from the spectator’s booth. No problem so far.

 

The next 50ms, however, are a little more interesting. This time around, the wheels are reporting 72.5 MPH. Now, it may not seem like a big jump, but to slow 1.5 MPH in a 50ms window equates to a deceleration of 1.36g’s. Not alarming, but the ABS ‘knows’ that based on this deceleration level, the wheels are probably beginning to slip a little more than they should – after all, your car is probably not decelerating at quite 1.36g’s..and any error between the two indicates slip.

 

ABS is now in "ready mode." It’s probably too soon to jump in, as the wheels might spin back up on their own in the next 50ms loop, but things are definitely looking bad!

 

As the first drum of water bounce left and right, missing your car by inches, you stay on the brake pedal but push even harder. This time around, the left front wheel speed sensor is registering 68 MPH – a 4.5 MPH drop in the last 50ms, or a deceleration level of 4.1g’s. Doing the math faster than you can (after all, you are busy dodging barrels of spring water), the ABS quickly comes to the conclusion that, unlike the left front wheel at this moment, the car cannot possibly be decelerating at 4.1g’s. Best case is that the car was decelerating at 1.0g (or thereabouts) over the last 50ms, so the ‘real’ vehicle speed is still somewhere around 71.5 MPH, even though the left front wheel speed is reading 68 MPH – a 3.5 MPH error.

 

So, based on a wheel deceleration of 4.1g’s, a slip level of 5% (3.5 MPH¸ 71.5 MPH), and a couple other factors not listed here, the ABS jumps in and enters "isolation mode." (Note that the wheels are nowhere even near "wheel lock" – the 100% slip point.) The first thing the ABS does is shut off the hydraulic line from the master cylinder to the left front caliper, isolating the driver from applying more pressure – after all, it was the driver that got us into this mess in the first place.

 

Next, the ABS starts work in "decrease mode," releasing the excess pressure from the left front caliper in order to allow the left front wheel to re-accelerate back up to the vehicle’s actual speed – 71.5 MPH in this case. Since the ABS knows how quickly the wheel is decelerating (4.1g), how fast the car is actually going (71.5 MPH), and the pressure-torque characteristics of the left front caliper/pad/disc assembly (we’ll come back to this one in just a second), it can precisely calculate how long to open its release valve to vent that extra pressure, leaving just enough pressure in the caliper to maintain 1.0g of deceleration (or thereabouts).

 

Let’s say that calculated time turned out to be 10 milliseconds. Bang! Valve opens, pressure is released, and 10ms later it closes, leaving just the right amount of pressure in the caliper so that the wheel spins back up to exactly 71.5 MPH, but continues to decelerate at 1.0g. Everything is going as planned.

 

Time to close the loop and enter "increase mode." Once the ABS sees that the left front wheel has returned to near the ‘real’ vehicle speed, it slowly reapplies pressure from the master cylinder to make sure that maximum sustainable brake force is being utilised. To this end, the ABS calculates precisely how long to pulse open the isolation valve, slowly building pressure at the left front caliper until once again the left front wheel begins to slip. It performs this calculation based on – you guessed it – how quickly the wheel is re-accelerating, how fast the car is actually going, and the pressure-torque characteristics of the caliper/pad/disc assembly.

In our hypothetical little world, the ABS calculated that four pulses of 5ms each were necessary to build the wheel pressure back up to the point that the wheel began to slip again, returning to "isolation mode."

The cycle is repeated on all four wheels simultaneously until either the driver gets out of the brake pedal, or until the car has come to a stop. Hopefully, this did not include punting a drum of water or two along the way as the ABS kept all four wheels slips in the 5%-10% range, allowing you to turn and swerve to your heart’s content as the drums bounced out of your path. Happy car, happy driver.

 

 

The Potential Impacts Of "Big Brakes"

Let’s now take the exact same scenario, but add a twist: you are returning home from having that long-sought-after big brake kit installed. You know, the one that required new 18" wheels to clear the 8-piston calipers and 16" brake discs. Driving around the car park you couldn’t believe the improvement in pedal feel and initial bite they displayed. These things must really throw a boat anchor behind the car at high speeds, right?

Well, let's see.

Resisting the temptation to run in the fast lane at triple-digit speeds, you once again find yourself behind the lorry at 75 MPH. drums fly and you again stamp on the brakes, but with the increased confidence of your new hardware to slow you down in time. Plus, you now know how the ABS works, so you hit the pedal hard confident that you will have both deceleration and steer ability. It couldn’t get any better.

Like scenario 1, after the initial 50, 100, and 150 milliseconds the ABS takes snapshots of the wheel speed information and registers 0.91g’s, 1.36g’s, and 4.1g’s on the left front wheel. Again the ABS quickly comes to the conclusion that, unlike the left front wheel at this moment, the car cannot possibly be decelerating at 4.1g’s. Best case is that the car was decelerating at 1.0g (or thereabouts) over the last 50ms, so the ‘real’ vehicle speed is still somewhere around 71.5 MPH, even though the left front wheel speed is reading 68 MPH – a 3.5 MPH error. So far, so good – just like last time.

Here’s where things start to get interesting, though. ABS enters "isolation mode" and shuts off the hydraulic line from the master cylinder to the left front caliper, isolating the driver from applying more pressure. Next, the ABS starts work in "decrease mode," and once again calculates that 10ms are required to the excess pressure from the left front caliper in order to allow the left front wheel to re-accelerate back up to the vehicle’s actual speed – 71.5 MPH in this case. Unfortunately, this calculation was based on the standard vehicle’s pressure-torque characteristics of the left front caliper/pad/disc assembly. Let’s talk about this briefly while the drums roll in closer.

 

Pressure-Torque And Pressure-Volume Relationships

When a braking system is designed and installed, the components are chosen to provide a certain deceleration level for a certain amount of force applied by the driver to the brake pedal. While the overall relationship is critical, there are many ways to achieve the same end…but fundamentally the parts are chosen to work together as a system.

One of the most important relationships for the ABS engineer is the pressure-torque (P-T) relationship of the caliper/pad/disc assembly. In so many words, for a given brake fluid pressure, X, the caliper/pad/disc assembly will build up a certain amount of torque, Y. For the sake of argument, let's assume that adding 100 PSI of brake pressure to the stock caliper in our example vehicle generates 100 ft-lb. of torque.

Another important relationship is the pressure-volume (P-V) characteristic of the system. This relationship defines the swelling or expansion of the brake system for a given increase in pressure. Let’s also say that our stock vehicle brake system ‘swells’ 1cc for every 100 PSI.

 

Unfortunately, there are several big-brake systems available today which pay no regard to the original P-T or P-V relationships of the original vehicle…and in fact many make it a point to affect drastic changes in these relationships in order to give the consumer that feeling of ‘increased bite.’ While the upside is certainly a firmer pedal and higher partial-braking deceleration for the same pedal force, the trade-off can be ABS confusion.

 

Back To The Water Drums

So, back to our example – the ABS has just calculated that a 10ms pressure reduction pulse was necessary to vent that extra pressure, leaving just enough pressure in the caliper to maintain 1.0g of deceleration (or thereabouts)…but the new system with its decreased P-V characteristics (increased stiffness!) releases twice as much pressure as the stock system in the same 10ms window (the equivalent of a 20ms pulse with the stock system)! Of course, the increased P-T characteristics (bigger discs! bigger pistons!) don’t help either, as now three to four times as much torque has been removed from the wheel as with the stock system, leaving only enough torque to decelerate the wheel at, say, 0.3g. In ABS land this is known as a ‘decel hole’ and feels just like you momentarily took your foot off the brake pedal.

 

Now, given that huge pressure decrease, the ABS quickly enters "increase mode," trying to correct and build the pressure back up near the vehicle’s maximum sustainable brake force. This takes time and time equals lost stopping distance.

 

The ABS calculates precisely how long to pulse open the isolation valve and determines that four pulses of 5ms each are necessary, just like before. Because of the new P-T and P-V characteristics however, after only two pulses the wheel is again being forced into slip, leaving the ABS scratching its head and wondering what’s going on. Not expecting wheel slip so soon, the ABS quickly releases pressure in an attempt to recover, but the damage has already been done.

 

The cycle is repeated on all four wheels simultaneously until either the driver gets out of the brake pedal, or until the car has come to a stop…but this time the ABS is always one step behind. In some cases the ABS is robust to modest changes in the base brake system, but in extreme cases there can be a significant negative impact to the vehicle’s steer ability (increased front wheel slip due to poor control) and a measurable increase in stopping distance (multiple ‘make up’ decrease pulses).

So, your chances of stopping in time or swerving to avoid one of the bouncing drums have been decreased. In this game, inches count and you sure need every one.

 

So Big Brakes Are A Bad Idea?

Well yes and no in fact, if designed and chosen properly, these upgrades can make the most of these control technologies while providing all of the cooling and thermal robustness advantages these kits have to offer.

In many cases fabricated adapter brackets to mount them to a variety of different cars, to market the kit as a ‘one-size-fits-all’ without first determining if the system will be compatible with the remaining foundation braking system.

Edited September 14, 200916 yr by Joely P

Can i make a suggestion?

 

If you want big brakes and good stopping power for a reasonable price the best value for money is Ksport calipers.

 

Joel,

These should do nicely I think I will be going for as an agressive offset as poss too, if 20 works with yours that might be a good place to start, I have a 12mm spacer that will be perfect. By the way what size are your front tyres ?

 

Joel,

These should do nicely I think I will be going for as an agressive offset as poss too, if 20 works with yours that might be a good place to start, I have a 12mm spacer that will be perfect. By the way what size are your front tyres ?

 

them spokes are quite far out to the rim with no dish so they should be grand... my front tyres are 225 40 18

to give you an idea of the fitment...

 

Every wheel has an x-factor which is how far the spoke is from the centre line, Find out your wheels x factor then calculate from where your calipers are at present and how far the new caliper extend out.

Offset also depends on the wheels width, if you had an 8inch front wheel and compared it to joelys which i think is 8.5 inch wide there is a 1.3mm size diference which is 7mm difference in offset so your 8inch wheel will stick in an extra 7mm compared to the 8.5inch wheel, thats almost 1cm which is a visable difference, just something to think about :D

Can i make a suggestion?

 

If you want big brakes and good stopping power for a reasonable price the best value for money is Ksport calipers.

 

Thanks Jaffa,

Can I ask you how does this set up compare with std, how much and does the ABS still work ?