Yesterday, whilst driving home from work, there is a stretch of road between Sheffield and Chesterfield called the Dronfield bypass. It is a sweet piece of road about 4-5 miles long where you can get to some good speeds. Anyway, I away from the roundabout in 3rd up to 90, 4th to 110 and then stuck in 5th and kept my foot down. Now on my tail is an 02 toyota celica vvvvvvti, or whatever they are, and till I got to 100, he was not gaining, then up to 120 I let him pass, which he did very slowly, because that's all he could, but then he flatted out at 135, and I went past at 140+.

 

Now my question is this, is an age when a 214 16v rover is producing more bhp than an 8v 1.8 astra GTE, how is it that a 1992 20ltr 8v cav sri can keep up with a 20ltr 16v, millenium designed aerodynamic sports coupe, and eventually beat it at the top end?

 

Something is not right with the way cars design is going? I know they are packed with more toys nowadays but the toys are becoming lighter and lighter.

 

Discuss!

Were you in a Cavalier or your Z? I'm guessing it was a Cav.

 

That 8V Cavalier engine produces good power and torque right through the rev range while the Celica only produces goos power right at the top of the rev range. So it's the 'area under the power curve, not the highest point' thing.

 

Of the Celica could have been the regular (140bhp) model, not the VVTi 190bhp jobby.

 

Unless you were in your Z.....?

Weight. Thats why the modern 350z gets whipped by the old 300zx. Its all about power to weight. Ant those celica 160bhp?

Doesn't the 350Z weigh less than the 300ZX?

Doesn't the 350Z weigh less than the 300ZX?

 

yup bout 120kgs less, wake up marcus lol!

Weight. Thats why the modern 350z gets whipped by the old 300zx. Its all about power to weight. Ant those celica 160bhp?

 

Nope, as Craig David said - 140bhp from the standard VVT-i version, and 190bhp from the VVTL-i version in the T-Sport.. The 190bhp doesn't come in till 6000rpm either - the dyno plots are identical up to 6000rpm where the 140bhp engine tails off, but the 190bhp jumps about 40bhp and then climbs to it's peak at about 7000rpm.

 

Modern engines (well, certainly the 140bhp version) are designed for economy, emissions and 'chuggability' - low revs torque rather than speed, because that's what people want in shopping trolleys (which is basically what the 1zz-fe engine is, a shopping trolley engine)

 

Aaaaanyway.. Dunno where I was going with that really :rofl:

 

Oh yeah - something I forgot.. if it was the 190, I'm not sure you can even get it up to 6000rpm in top gear (5th or 6th depending on the year IIRC) because it just doesn't have the grunt when it's not 'on cam'..

Yesterday, whilst driving home from work, there is a stretch of road between Sheffield and Chesterfield called the Dronfield bypass. It is a sweet piece of road about 4-5 miles long where you can get to some good speeds. Anyway, I away from the roundabout in 3rd up to 90, 4th to 110 and then stuck in 5th and kept my foot down. Now on my tail is an 02 toyota celica vvvvvvti, or whatever they are, and till I got to 100, he was not gaining, then up to 120 I let him pass, which he did very slowly, because that's all he could, but then he flatted out at 135, and I went past at 140+.

 

Now my question is this, is an age when a 214 16v rover is producing more bhp than an 8v 1.8 astra GTE, how is it that a 1992 20ltr 8v cav sri can keep up with a 20ltr 16v, millenium designed aerodynamic sports coupe, and eventually beat it at the top end?

 

Something is not right with the way cars design is going? I know they are packed with more toys nowadays but the toys are becoming lighter and lighter.

 

Discuss!

 

I think sporty cars and super saloons peaked late eighties to mid ninties. Some of the best cars were made at this time. The RS500 (one of my personal favs :)), the saphire cosworth, the RX7, the 300zx, s13 200sx, the s14 in this time too!, the Lotus Carlton, the original (E30) M3, and the E36, the M5, the You look at the tosh they make today, (with exception to BMW, and i'm not saying that as I own one, just seems TBH they have made consistently powerful cars, and even nissan to some extent but only because of the Skyline) even the Focus RS (whilst being kind of fond of it) is a FWD torque steer monster with still no more performance and fun than the old saphire cosworth! or RS500 for that matter! (the latter the better of the two :D). Compare the RX7 to the RX8, Compare the 300zx to the 350z, the list goes on. Cars seemed to peek, then they trailed off. I think they started getting hung up on designing more modern looking and unique style cars. If you look at it all the real modern and off the wall styled cars came in after 95, I think performance took a back seat. Then came the refinement and comfort and quietness of the cars, I think a lot of companies lost their roots to producing good performance cars along this transition. But it seems now they have their designs sorted, they are now trying to concentrate more on performance.

 

One thing I truly hate, is somehow, at this stage where car power seemed to take a back seat, to have a car 180hp or over is marked as an achievement??? Most cars like the newer Rovers, vectras especially and toyotas etc, all have badges on the side like 180, 190 etc etc.

very bizarre. Wouldn’t really want to advertise that!

 

Anyway, lets hope that emissions, comfort and quietness takes a back seat on certain models in production cars in the future!!

 

Steve

I think the Japanese certainly 'peaked' then. (mid 90s??)

 

Their economy had been on a massive roll for ages and they had the money to build world-beating cars.

 

Then the arse fell out of their economy and they're only really recovering recently.

 

Could be true of other nations cars too for whatever reasons but I spent some time thinking about the Japnese!

350Z

Max. output

291 PS (287.0 bhp) (214 kW)

@6200 rpm

Max. torque

372.0 Nm (274 lbft) (37.9 kgm)

@4800 rpm

Kerb weight 1446 kg 3188 lb

Power-to-weight 198.48 bhp/ton

 

300zx

Max. output 279.8 PS (276.0 bhp) (205.8 kW)

@6400 rpm

Max. torque 371.0 Nm (274 lbft) (37.8 kgm)

@3600 rpm

Kerb weight 1550 kg 3417 lb

Power-to-weight 178.06 bhp/ton

 

The Z's only saving grace is the 1200rpm torque advantage, the fact it holds it slightly longer and perhaps gearing. 1200rpm when racing is a lot! By then time the 350 gets there the 300 is already spanking those ponies hard :D

I think the Japanese certainly 'peaked' then. (mid 90s??)

 

Their economy had been on a massive roll for ages and they had the money to build world-beating cars.

 

Then the arse fell out of their economy and they're only really recovering recently.

 

Could be true of other nations cars too for whatever reasons but I spent some time thinking about the Japnese!

 

Yup, would agree.

 

One thing I did love was that age of turbo cars. When Ford made the s1 RS Turbo and the early cosworth, every one else was trying to get on the bandwagon of making turbo mid-sized and family sized cars. Renault went a bit crazy and did the whole 5,7,11,15 and 21 series in turbos, which was entertaining (having owned 2 R21 turbos at this time lol, was still fun) and who can forget the amazing Renault GTA A610! (dribble) the successor to the A310, then you had the GT-TI's, the fiats, including the chav fav UNO!, Peugot (although most of these never made it to england :(), the more upmarket ones that were doing there own things such as Audi turbos in more form (the amazing first generation quattros :)), saab turbos, the list goes on.

 

Everything was having turbos strapped to it!!!!

 

Although there was a lot of crap cars mixed in there, they all were fun in one way or another and in the form of providing people with that little whistle that is linked directly with the nerves that just make people smile :)

Yesterday, whilst driving home from work, there is a stretch of road between Sheffield and Chesterfield called the Dronfield bypass. It is a sweet piece of road about 4-5 miles long where you can get to some good speeds. Anyway, I away from the roundabout in 3rd up to 90, 4th to 110 and then stuck in 5th and kept my foot down. Now on my tail is an 02 toyota celica vvvvvvti, or whatever they are, and till I got to 100, he was not gaining, then up to 120 I let him pass, which he did very slowly, because that's all he could, but then he flatted out at 135, and I went past at 140+.

 

Now my question is this, is an age when a 214 16v rover is producing more bhp than an 8v 1.8 astra GTE, how is it that a 1992 20ltr 8v cav sri can keep up with a 20ltr 16v, millenium designed aerodynamic sports coupe, and eventually beat it at the top end?

 

Something is not right with the way cars design is going? I know they are packed with more toys nowadays but the toys are becoming lighter and lighter.

 

Discuss!

 

 

PMSL Scoops are you reading this? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: ;)

MMMmmmm A310

 

 

MMMmmmm A610

 

 

 

Sorry love em couldnt resist.

 

Think my ultimate car would be a A310 with a Z engine in :D :nana2:

I seriously considered an A610 before I got the Z - what put me off at the time were the stupendously expensive insurance quotes :eek:

There are still some good light sports cars out there...

 

Elise / Exige (Toyota engine, so that's nicely on topic)

Clio Cup 182 (hardly any torque steer and more oversteer than many RWD cars)

 

And they're under 30 grand - which the Z was NEW in 1989 - so that must be pushing 60k in today's money. You could have a Porsche for that, remember, and they still do the business.

 

It's not necessarily all about power - the RalliArt 450 Evos were supposed to have 450ft-lb, NOT 450bhp!

 

Ford performance lost their way but they've acknowledged that and the cars over the last year or so are supposed to be getting better again...

 

What about the Monaro? Nice fruity V8 in that...

 

European emissions law is the major hurdle if you want power rather than torque, so no-one does it any more...