I got some advice from zevans a while ago-

 

I might be passing you ovoid objects for elderly relatives to ingest here, but...

 

You gotta drive an NA and a TT differently.

 

You need to rev the tits off the NA to get performance, as you've found - they are (traditionally) designed for high power not high torque - which means high wheel torque at high revs in a low gear. (It's a bit more complicated since all these weird and wonderful valve timing designs since the late 80s, which mean NAs do deliver torque low down ... but I'm ignoring that.) It's really worth going right to the redline in 1st and 2nd to take advantage of the gearing.

 

Lots of gear changes to stay in the power band...

 

In a TT it's all about boost, and staying on boost - a gear change costs you lag. Therefore it's not always worth changing down a gear, better to just stay on boost and wait for 3500 revs to arrive. Engine speed makes much less difference, it's all about boost.

 

So no gear changes unless you're WAY down the rev range!

 

I like getting in different cars and figuring out what to do differently to get the best... it's all part of the fun. Just look at it that way - much cheaper than trying to give an NA engine a TT torque curve!

 

And I am looking for someone to expand on this a bit. I rev my engine a bit... but I always think oh shit I don't want to knacker it WAY before I get close to the red line.

 

How far can I rev in 1st or 2nd? I am probably still thinking like I'm in my driving instructors civic here, so excuse me for being utterly clueless, but I feel I am not keeping the revs in the 'power band' properly, if that's the right expression.

 

Usually I change gear from third to fouth about 40 mph as the revs go up to about 3 and a half to four. I would say it is not often I let the revs creep over 4. I doubt that counts as revving the tits off it, but it's like I can't bring myself to push it.

 

Any advice on what might seem very elementary driving? Where 'should' I be changing gear to get the most accelleration and fastest response? Will I damage the engine by revving too hard in too low a gear, or only if it goes over 7000 revs? Sorry about the long post.

redline it in every gear :D Afterall thats what happens in an auto when you floor the throttle, and nissan programmed it like that, and they wouldnt program the box so it blows up the engine would they ;)

I dont look at the rev counter when I am driving, either car or bike.

You will feel when the car stops pulling, and once you get used to the sound the engine is making at that point you will change up 'by ear'. I do find that my NA pulls clear to the rev limiter tho.

 

You dont want to be hitting that too often as it feels like youve blown something, and it will cause a little anal flutter the first time you do it :D

first make sure it is in good condition with all fluids topped up and clean....then......

 

CANE THE NUTS OFF IT!!!!! :dance:

 

just before the limiter is the best time to change gear in almost all sports orientated N/A's.

gotta agree with jock and clarkey.

hammer it. it is VERY UNLIKELY that you will do damage to it by doing this. damage at these engine speeds is usually caused by low oil/water levels.

go out and use it like it was designed to be.:eek: :dance:

forgot to mention: my fireblade doesnt hit the limiter till 11,500rpm and takes it all day long and i bet jock's firestorm aint too far behind that so 7,000 aint much.;)

and to top it off, the TT has the same rev range to play with and has 0.7bar of pressure going through it at the same time. nuff said:D

I'm planning to write a "proper" article on this which is why I haven't posted any more...

 

I haven't seen an Z32 NA's curve, but changing up at 4 is probably changing up just BEFORE you hit any power!

 

Even my modified -turbo- doesn't get REALLY going until about 4k...

 

Sports NAs are designed to rev, and the gearing is designed around high revs = high power, so you've got to rev it to get the go out of it, simple as that. I do know what you mean about scary - I still find it hard to keep my foot down past about 6k - but it really does make a big difference when you do. I'm only JUST getting comfortable in a "chuck the car around without thinking and watch the traffic instead" kind of way now and I've driven about 3000 miles in it.

 

The limiter on these things is generally set -way- before the actual point of self-destruct, so you CAN'T rev it over what it was designed for. Don't welly it on corners though...

 

Incidentally does anyone else get serious understeer in the wet, or is this more evidence my shocks need looking at? (Quite useful though, you can just get rid of it with the throttle and you're sorted for the rest of the corner)

Thank you all for these replies. I guess I just find it hard to keep my foot down and hear the engine noise unlike any car I have ever owned!! (and I mean that in a good way).

 

So, basically I rev it until the power seems to fade? or when it's automatically limited? I really have never revved it beyond about 4000. I think I was reared on changing up gears as quick as possible and keeping it at about 2000rpm for more 'economical' driving. Not what this car is about I suppose.

 

I would be very interested to read more about this. Havn't found any good web sites really and I would be interested in reading an article on this subject. I have swung one way and the other over my NA- whether I should sell up and get a TT, but I think the car has a LOT to offer, and does (especially as a manual) offer a very different experience than the turbo, as you have pointed out.

 

I really want to understand a bit more about the gearing and how it transfers the power to the wheels.

 

Clarkey- so is that really what happens in an auto when you push it to the metal? It revs to the redline?

 

The difference I felt with my Soarer TT was that I put my foot down (not to the floor) and although I felt the turbo lag up to 3500 rpm (in other words it went, but when it reached 3 and a half it FLEW) when it did reach the boost point it went hurtling forward, which is what I miss with the NA. If I was trying to overtake, it would be a second of the other guy going, 'yeah, yeah on you go, try it mate', then I would after that hesitation be away from him and leaving him for dust. With the NA it seems more difficult to pull away with that surprising 'fvck me where the hell has he gone' I got in the Soarer.

 

At higher speed on the motorway, the soarer would already be on boost and a bit more pressure on the pedal would take me from 100 to 120 without even thinking.

 

The NA sits comfortably in 5th at 100, but it seems more work to go to 120- more gradual. If I were to shift to fourth at 100 (4000rpm?) what would happen?

 

Anyway, sorry for another long post. If anyone has a good url related to this I would stop asking granny questions.

 

Cheers for the sound advice again guys.

Can't say much for Z's (killer that I am) but on my MR2. If you wanted it to run hard and fast then you had to use the rev range. Bikers call it a power band, but you just know when the engine is happy and when it is just making more noise.

 

Find a dry road and use the full range, yellow/red lines are there to tell you to stop - or fit an rev limiter so you can't blow your self up.

 

If it's anything like my other twin cam engines - over 4 it lights up, the grin gets wider and the fuel economy goes out of the window.

it sure does Rich, in fact not only does it rev to the redline, it revs right into the redline till the limiter then shifts up so fast you can hardly believe it.

 

Oh, and in the non turbo 4th gear will take it to 126mph, so shifting down to 4th at 100 should give you a nice boost in power.

drive it and rev it like there no tomorrow--- u may be suprised

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pete:)

Originally posted by Rich

 

. I think I was reared on changing up gears as quick as possible and keeping it at about 2000rpm for more 'economical' driving.

 

 

The only "economical" way to drive a zed, is not to drive it at all!!!:D ;)

I know. They know my name at the shell station now. Every four days for a full tank.

 

So is there a rev limiter on the car? Can you add that as an aftermarket product?

 

I am going to try pushing it a bit more and see what happens. Next time I am on a quiet road when it's dry. I have yet to feel my back end slip at all, so I guess I am just a pussy driver, or is there just not enough power in an NA? If I rev too hard at a junction the wheels spin, but I have never felt the back end go out. I have so far put it down to having reasonable tyres, but maybe it's just not aggressive driving. Not that I am after having the tail all over the road, just heard everyones stories about loosing it at twenty miles an hour on a roundabout it made me worry a bit that the thing would be uncontrollable.

 

Only time it has happened has been on a side road with a lot of frost on the ground last week.

the only Z without a rev limiter is is one which has had it removed.

this goes for most cars these days and virtually all twin cam/4valve head cars.

find a straight preferably with some nice tarmac and boot it till it stops pulling. the sound like a missfire is the rev limiter.:)

you have just "used" the car for the first time.;)

as some have said, it was designed as a sports N/A. this means the torque arrives late in the power curve for high tractive force through lower gears. basically same torque at higher revs = more power.

if you have 80lb/ft at 2,000 and you gear it to do 40 mph@max torque, it will do 40mph@2,000.

if you take the 80lb/ft and move it to 6,000 you will be able to run gearing of 40mph@6,000 for the same peak figures, making it accelerate through the range harder for the same speed.

i know this sounds like a load of mumbling, but just remember that a honda S2000 makes 241bhp from an N/A 2.0 this is because it holds its torque for ages (it redlines at 9,000).

the downside to this is that it has to sacrifice bottom end/midrange to do it. this is why N/A's get known as being "revvy"

Originally posted by Rich

So, basically I rev it until the power seems to fade?

 

Yep. :-)

 

From the rest of your post it sounds like you've got the gist now...

 

I can't find any books or indeed many decent web sites on it either - the "Physics of Racing" stuff is solid but a bit deep and not very well written for an audience short of A-Level applied maths... have a read! http://phors.locost7.info/contents.htm

 

The back steps out more easily on a turbo because of the sudden arrival of power, as you mention for the Soarer, not necessarily because of the power per se. The sudden change is what upsets balance / overcomes the tyres - one drifting technique is to dip the clutch for the same reason.

 

If you want an NA to hurtle forward just drop down two gears - you'll suddenly have twice as much torque at the wheels, which is exactly what happens when you get on boost in a TT. In a TT if you drop a gear you would in theory have the same effect - but it's masked by the engine going off boost which -loses- you torque. The two (off-boost but lower gear) kind of cancel out.

 

So in a TT the hesitation comes from waiting for boost, whereas in an NA the hesitation comes from changing gear. Because in an NA you've changed gear and done something active, it feels like it's you hesitating, not the car, hence the different sensation.

 

Guess that answers your 5th to 4th question?

 

If you bung your tyre sizes into

http://home.swipnet.se/e-solutions/files/Gearsp_NS.xls (remember to use the "Z32 man" tab) you'll see where the redline is in each gear. A ton is 5000 revs in 4th in mine, so I'd still have power until at least 130mph and redline is well over 140!

 

4th has 30% more go than 5th so I'd say it was worth doing. 100 in 4th will pull exactly as if you had an extra 100bhp in 5th! (An extra third more oomph at the wheels.)

 

[edit: Just realised your final drive is shorter so top speed in 4th will be lower, but the above still applies]

 

Dropping from 5th to 3rd on the motorway to boot past Mr Middle Lane 70mph is the most fun you can have with your clothes on. :-)

 

If you find a book I'd love to know...

 

Not granny questions at all - I'm surprised how little discussion of driving there actually is on this forum!

 

I'd love to drive an NA Z at some point, see what the difference really is...

Just had another idea... get someone to rag your NA with you in the passenger seat, in the nature of aversion therapy. :rofl: :dance:

JUST bloody floor it!!!:dance: or whats the point of have it :)

All this has been really informative. I had a go today- told myself it's MEANT to do this, it's MEANT to sound like this, and let it rev up.

 

!!!!!!!!!

 

Yes, I did feel the power!! I felt it come on OVER 4k revs like you all said, in fact that's when it really felt like it was responding, and I got *that* good feeling I got when I felt the boost come on in a TT.

 

I will continue with my 'experiments' in pushing it a bit further. I just have this feeling like oh shit is it REALLY supposed to be doing this...That's why I asked the question in the first place. I feel like I have actually started using the car now. In fact, it's like having a new car (with twice the power) again now I know what it CAN do. Call me a jessy, but we all have to get used to the car in our own way. I blame it on my repressed upbringing...

 

I think maybe a lot of people diss NAs without knowing they can really do and that they CAN go fast. How many of you TT guys have actually driven an NA? This really was a beam-of-light-from-heaven revelation type moment for me, when I let the revvs go on, and on...and on... over 4.... then 5 (shock, horror!!) and I felt the real power there for the taking.

 

zevans... Cheers again. Very interesting reading. knowing what sort of power is being delivered-

 

4th has 30% more go than 5th so I'd say it was worth doing. 100 in 4th will pull exactly as if you had an extra 100bhp in 5th! (An extra third more oomph at the wheels.)

 

Do I have to say I had fun practicing today!!!

Welcome to the world of lightness and joy that is thrashing the nads off an NA :)

I'm all in favour of looking after engines etc etc, but once it's warmed up - it' time to have some fun! Give it some berries man!

 

If it was not advised to rev up to the red line why would they set the red line so high? It's a RED line for a reason for God's sake - go up to it often and beyond it occasionally and it'll be fine!

 

My GSXR has sod-all power below about 8,000 and only really takes off from about 10.5k onwards. Limiter is on the wrong side of 13,500 rpm. I know it's a bike, but what i'm saying is if I'd never used more than 7,000 rpm on it i'd have got rid ages ago - once I found the power band I got hooked!

 

" but I have never felt the back end go out. I have so far put it down to having reasonable tyres, but maybe it's just not aggressive driving." :slap:

 

Find yourself a nice 2nd gear corner with a wide exit, enter it with about 4,000 dialled up and give it some gas as you leave the apex - you'll either be posting about the joyz of oversteer or looking for some spare parts! LOL!

 

Good luck and happy revving - i'm amazed your reticence in using the rev range is attributed to your first driving experiences though! If that was the same for me i'd still be razzing the nads off everything I drove thinking I was a dog slow 1.3 fiesta, and trying to hit the limiter in every gear! :D

My first car was a diesel... imagine how long it took me to get used to this revs thing!

It's funny Rich, but when I got my N/A SWB Auto, I was very disapointed in the performance, having driven big engined Audi's before which have lots of low down torque, I like you, kept easing off the throttle and letting it change up at 4 to 5K revs.

 

One day, I opened it up, switched auto to power mode, switched off overdrive, and suddenly realised it wasn't slow at all, I was just being too gentle with it!! Goes like stink!!

 

But..... then we bought a second TT SWB Auto..... Now the N/A seems positively sedate!!, I've never driven anything quite so ludicrously fast as the TT zed!!, I can't beleive people mod them for more power!! LOL ours is standard, and bringing it home on the motorway, slightly damp conditions, doing about 80mph, I throttled down a bit to overtake, it kicked down and the rear end stepped out with wheel spin at over 80mph!!, now there is a car you have to respect or else...

 

I'm glad the missus is having it, and I'm keeping the N/A!!

 

Paul

What kind of Audi was it- how big was the engine? and which is best- a car you need to rev to get results, or something with torque in low revs, which I guess gets going more quickly.

 

It's like the Soarer- the 2.5 tt engine seems to take off easily and fly, but I do like the idea of the 4.0 V8 which apparently has more torque at lower revs, with BHP close to a TT zed. I would like to try driving one of them to see what the differences are.