Spoilers increase downforce but increase drag.

The latter disadvantage to give greater grip from the extra downforce seems unavoidable.

 

I have thought of a possible way to reduce this disadvantage dramatically, without reducing the downforce. So here goes...

 

Design a spoiler which has a 2-position setting. The low acceleration/low speed setting is such that the spoiler provides little drag and hence downforce when it is not needed. But when you boot the car and need the extra downforce, the sudden movement (or high wind speed if cruising at high speed) forces the spoiler into position 2, where normal spoiler function of downforce and unavoidable drag are operational.

 

The advantages over a mechanically operated one are no extra mass or power losses and less to go wrong (one hopes!).

 

Is this cutting-edge or a geeky suggestion ??. Place your bets now !!;) ;) :D

I do understand Nelson's fustration as I am also toying with a concept for a new, better and more efficient building material. I and my colleages are also committed to this research and have often been extremely perplexed that we haven't found the solution.

 

Our aim is to find or make UBM. UBM stands for Universal Building Material. As our field is architecture, you can see the great benefits we would gain from such a material. Allow me to describe UBM and perhaps in doing so you may all join our crusade.

 

UBM is harder and stronger than diamond but yet malleable and workable by hand. It can be completely transparent or opaque or translucent to any level with a colour range beyond human eye sight. It can duplicate the texture, colour and feel of any other material or a mixture thereof living or otherwise.

 

It has sound and thermal insulation properties which vary according to external conditions and occupants' comfort levels.

 

When used as a roofing material it can direct water to fall upwards and round difficult corners to eradicate valley gutters and problematic drainage. It can be supplied on-site by mail (standard envelope size) and once exposed to open air and light (can be natural or artificial) expands to 2 million times the original size.

 

In short, it is as its name suggests....a Universal Building Material.

 

Now, if we can attain this UBM it would solve Nelsons downforce/drag hypothesis. Oh...and of course also his great quest for mass reduction without loss of structural integrity.

 

However, as we haven't found UBM, the spoiler could be made flat and when down force is needed the bottom is pressurised and expands forming an upside down wing. There are of course other alternatives to forming the upside down wing other than pressurisation.

 

Laterz

 

Van

Originally posted by Van300

I do understand Nelson's fustration as I am also toying with a concept for a new, better and more efficient building material. I and my colleages are also committed to this research and have often been extremely perplexed that we haven't found the solution.

 

Our aim is to find or make UBM. UBM stands for Universal Building Material. As our field is architecture, you can see the great benefits we would gain from such a material. Allow me to describe UBM and perhaps in doing so you may all join our crusade.

 

UBM is harder and stronger than diamond but yet malleable and workable by hand. It can be completely transparent or opaque or translucent to any level with a colour range beyond human eye sight. It can duplicate the texture, colour and feel of any other material or a mixture thereof living or otherwise.

 

It has sound and thermal insulation properties which vary according to external conditions and occupants' comfort levels.

 

When used as a roofing material it can direct water to fall upwards and round difficult corners to eradicate valley gutters and problematic drainage. It can be supplied on-site by mail (standard envelope size) and once exposed to open air and light (can be natural or artificial) expands to 2 million times the original size.

 

In short, it is as its name suggests....a Universal Building Material.

 

Now, if we can attain this UBM it would solve Nelsons downforce/drag hypothesis. Oh...and of course also his great quest for mass reduction without loss of structural integrity.

 

However, as we haven't found UBM, the spoiler could be made flat and when down force is needed the bottom is pressurised and expands forming an upside down wing. There are of course other alternatives to forming the upside down wing other than pressurisation.

 

Laterz

 

Van

 

Quality i am p1ssing myself!!!!

Originally posted by x-biker

Great idea! You could also attach a sail to the ropes and pulleys and get a few extra mph. Would be fantastic fun 'tacking' accross the M4!!:D :D :D

 

Yes - use the wind like a boat :D :D Whatever floats your boat I guess !:D

 

Automatic, kinetically activated variable profile wind-asistance spoilers ??;)

Originally posted by 300z

so basically like the f1 cars of two or so years ago?

on the straights the rear wing would flex and create low downforce?

then under load in corners it corrected itself. was banned lol.

 

see I aint talkin' bollox !:D Thanks Warren. FI ban everything which is fun FFS :( :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Nelson MainFella

see I aint talkin' bollox !:D Thanks Warren. FI ban everything which is fun FFS :( :rolleyes:

 

Still waiting for the diagram Nelson!

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by mxs

Still waiting for the diagram Nelson!

:rolleyes:

 

wots the point ?? without UBM, it's not worthwhile :D ;)

Hate to do this but you're thinking the wrong way round.

 

A wing is to produce downforce to increase the grip between tyres and road. Now a wing increases its forces with the SQUARE of the speed so double speed and quadruple downforce and quadruple the drag. This means that with any fixed wing as you get faster you get shed loads of downforce and shed loads of drag - you actually tend to get more downforce than you need. So actulally it would be better to make the wing go flatter as you go faster.......

 

The Mitsubishi 3000 does this with electro servos - speed related through control box - rear wing goes flat and drop of front underbumper spoiler changes.

 

To prove this is the right way round check out F1 - they run LESS wing on fast circuits - on slow twisty circuits they run loads of wings because they aren't working as well because of the slower airspeed.

 

At high speed you want just enough downforce and least drag possible. At low speed you want as much downforce as possible and the drag doesn't matter too much.

 

An example of excessive high speed downforce without thinking about it - check out the Mercs of 2 Le Mans ago. They produced say 1000lbs of downforce per wheel at the front at 200mph on straight - this seems good but it compressed springs say 2 1/2 ins which lowered nose -> more downforce -> rinse repeat. Now car hits bump and nose lifts --> downforce decreases and springs unload stored energy --> nose lifts --> rinse repeat ---> car takes off and somersaults over barriers at 200mph -> sudden but not totally unexpected bang :(

 

Now as far as the "wind" blowing the wing ...... so now you want the wing to produce LESS drag at speed ..... so the force you want to PULL the wing to its new postion is the force you want to REDUCE i.e the more it goes to its desired postion the less force there is to take it there - wrong way round. :(

 

Maybe another idea would be spring loaded leading edge slots - the Me109 fighter had these in World War2 - as the airspeed decreased they popped out of the front of the wing to increase lift.

 

BTW most race series have banned aerodynamic devices which move hence no race cars with electric wings - even the Ferrari front wing which flexed to incresed down force was considered by many to be illegal. Oh and although that did flex to increase downforce at speed (it closed the gap between track and underside of the wing so increasing venturi effect) it did it with minimal drag impact and at the front only which is good to stop the car going nose light.

 

Sparks

I think F1 is so boring - the main interest for me in a car is that you make it better. To have limits and restrictions all over the place is so boring.

 

r there any races where there are no restriction on engine or body ?

Originally posted by Sparks

Hate to do this but you're thinking the wrong way round.

 

 

I c wot u mean but.......

 

It could still work as I have said, but such that the wing flattens at higher speeds rather than moving vertically, as Warren said the Ferrari F1 did.

 

Re the wind, I don't see how you could do that without motors and sensors. Who want to test drive a paper mache & duct tape dummy model ? :D

Another thought - don't get confused between spoilers and rear wings ....... Porsche boxters have a speed actuated spoiler and the Carreras have a speed actuated rear tail ... now these do a diffent thing. The back end of a car has very complex aerodynamics - sometimes spoilers are put on to disrupt the airflow leaving the tail of the car to increase its directional stability at speed - bit like a drag chute. Other times its to increase downforce because the high speed flow over the roof is causing the back to go light - think thats why the Carreras tail comes out ...... all depends on the car.

 

Sparks

As far as racing goes Nelson - LeMans is about the closest you'll get to no holds but is still very restricted. F1 in the eighties was the most innovative time - active suspension, turbos, skirts etc but looney fast.

 

Sparks