The war looks like its going to be over soon, all you tw@ts who didnt want the war, all you peace marching losers, all you sad gits still out there having peace marches, do you really still believe that the war shouldnt have happened???

 

See the pictures of people in the streets? giving flowers to the soldiers, made up that the fact that the soldiers are there and Soddem is on his way out..

 

you lot should hang your heads in shame because if we haddnt gone in these people would still be opressed, miserable and living in fear of their lives.

 

Well done to the boys out there!!

 

hope its over soon.

Originally posted by scoops

The war looks like its going to be over soon, all you tw@ts who didnt want the war, all you peace marching losers, all you sad gits still out there having peace marches, do you really still believe that the war shouldnt have happened???

 

See the pictures of people in the streets? giving flowers to the soldiers, made up that the fact that the soldiers are there and Soddem is on his way out..

 

you lot should hang your heads in shame because if we haddnt gone in these people would still be opressed, miserable and living in fear of their lives.

 

Well done to the boys out there!!

 

hope its over soon.

LMAO CLASS, The pro war lobby is still wrong, i mean who on earth woudl want to free 30 miilion people from complete opression :rolleyes: :rolleyes: i guess the minister of misinformation will say all those people in the streets are paid to do that sigh :rolleyes:

love it , america is the best.

 

and like i said once let the fag frenchees

 

go and eat all the dog shi..t in paris for not

 

wanting to help .. hey whats that i hear

 

is that a tomahauk heading for the eithel tower??

 

 

hehehehaha..

 

power to all zed owners....

Regardless of the outcome, the war was wrong. If Irag was such a threat to the western world why were they not able to defend themselves effectively? It proves that there was no threat hence no reason for the invasion.

 

People are oppressed in one way or another throughout the world are we and the americans going to help them too?

 

The main reasons for the war is because of the oil and likely opportunity of arms sale to a free Irag. As it stood previously america & uk couldn't very well sell weapons to Irag for obvious reasons.

 

The war provides a good marketing vehicle for america to illustrate the effectiveness of their advance weapons- even superior to uk technology as proven by 'friendly' fire. I don't believe we have shot any americans so far but I may be wrong.

 

Every country has a right to govern itself no matter what form it may take. When people realise that their government is not working in the interest of their people there will be an uprising of some form or another as has happened in most developed countries.

 

For an example, what are we going to do if for some strange reason the people of Irag want another dictator to rule Irag???

 

Oppression takes many forms. I believe religion is one but I also believe that the religious are untitled to lead their own lifes and to bring up their children how they wish-even brain washing them with the same religious beliefs.

 

There were many options to dislodge Saddam and his regime. However these options are far more time consuming and would require diplomacy and patience- probably beyond Bush's capabilities and anyway he needed to draw america's attention from Osama Binladin. The great advantage of war is that it always strengthens public support for government leaders. Until they lose of course.

 

I can go on but I there is no need. I can not change peoples views and I wouldn't want to as I prefer them to change their own views through experience and growing knowledge/wisdom.

 

Just my view.....

 

By the way, I was born in communist North Vietnam. My family had close views of the B52s and there destructiveness. North Vietnam won the CIVIL war and was united. But, as with anything that doesn't work and is unsustainable, look at Vietnam now. Or communism for that matter.

 

Van

Excellent Van, you took the words right out of my mouth, everybody else take note.

As a wannabee buddhist-y thing, I've had - and still do - a big problem with war as a resolving force.

 

Gandhi-ji liberated an entire continent (oh alright then, sub-continent) from us Brits by non-violence. Top banana. But the countries created in that turmoil haven't exactly been paragons of non-violence.

 

What would have happened to the Buddha or Ghandi - or, come to that, the-alleged-Jesus or the-alleged-Mohammed - in Saddam's Iraq?

 

Probably an instant of feeling good and virtuous followed by either a bullet (if lucky) or 5 years of 240v on the gonads. And no change to the regime.

 

Ghandi's non-violence worked because (my guess) at that time us Brits were trying to be civilised. Not something Saddam gives two hoots for.

 

Yes, war is probably wrong - but at the end of the day, I ask myself would I prefer to live in the US or in last year's Iraq? No contest. And no contest for the worldwide millions of Iraqi refugees.

 

Just keep your fingers crossed for peace arriving as quickly as war.

 

Peace to all - Gio

It's believed they have chemical weapons, it still is. They've used them before and have decided not to comply with the UN's demands. When you consider something like VX where a release of a few kg's could kill thousands and thousands of people what choice is there. Hey they've used the stuff before.

I actually work in the countries only chemical & biological defence establishment where ALL samples of any chemical are sent to. Our departments work load has massively increased and is now manned 24/7, constanly running middle east scenarios. That don't happen unless it's needed.

 

I'm no expert on the subject of oil, except that my car seems to like it, but not once have i seen a statement from any expert on tv claiming they think the war is to do with oil. Ofcourse governments will deny it. Perhaps its selective journalism. But all the university experts on this kinda thing ive seen on tv state there's no way it's to do with oil and there's no way it could be, it's just hippies of the earth protesting. Stick to ya weed i say!

Whatever anyone's opinion of the rights and/or wrongs of this war, today made me feel that at least some good has come out of it. It was heart warming to see that after all the bombing of their city and all the deaths and losses the people must have suffered, they were still glad to see the arrival of the allies.

 

Like Gio, I also have severe problems reconciling the use of war with a means of liberating a people. One seems anathema to the other.

 

However, today showed me that something good came out of this. There are powerful arguments that the end didn't justify the means just as there are powerful arguments that it did. Personally, I'm just glad to see the hope in peoples' eyes that there is a future in Iraq. We can't change what has happened and we need to look to the future.

 

Try not to slate people's views whether they are "pro" or "anti" war. Everyone's entitled to a view and it doesn't make them a tree hugging hippy or a war-mongering barbarian just 'coz they have an opposing view point to yours. It is a sign of true knowledge when you can consider your oponents view point even when it appears utterly absurd to your own beliefs.

 

I've got a baby coming in less than three months and I'd like to bring him into the best world possible.

It has to be agreed that war is fundamentally wrong, however in some cases the end can justify the means. I would feel considerably more comfortable about the whole issue if the US (and to lesser extent the UK) strove to address all opressive regimes, rather than just ones in which they have a financial interest.

 

Peace (hopefully)

Iraq, is the largest provider of oil to the world and even though there are millions of Iraqis without jobs, food or water, there is still money to build thousands of those pictures, hudresds of statues and a few hundred palaces built with marble, gold and what looked like oak and mohogny wood. In other words the most espencive you can get.

 

They also say that Sadam has over 300 BILLION pounds stock up somewhere which is money from selling the countries oil. Imagine what would happen if Blair was found to have just £1,000,000 of government money in his account.

 

Iraqi fear of the regieam is all too apparent in the news casts. 4-5 days ago they where shouting at the US and UK, and lets not forget the 1000 Australian solders there, to go home. Saying otherwise would have meant death to them and most probably thier families. But now there is now no fear about the speaking up, they are welcoming people.

 

I agree war is a terrible thing and war is the last resort and it was. For 15 years Sadam has been told to buck up his ideas and he didn't.

 

And for any one who thinks this is about oil, you are a f%*king moron. How will this happen? The UN said it is now going to play a huge roll in rebuildling the country and is taking all the money made from the oil into an account to be used for the country, how the f%*k can the UK and US be getting the oil. They are not about to put their own pipes in and have Shell and Texico oil trucks to dive up.

 

Also to darkman2,

that is the attitude which makes most of the world hate you, saying "america is the best." What about the thousands of UK soilders who are in Iraq too, and the 1000 Austrailian. Where is you praise of them? The UK may not have as many the US but there is no where near as many people in the UK than the US and over 50 people have died with so called friendly fire. 2 have been caused by the UK.

 

I watched the US news and there are reports of US forces but then talking about Basra and Um-Kaza its colition forces and not UK, but this is a different conversation.

 

 

Stuart

Without wishing to make this a personal diatribe, where are your billious attacks on these responses 300z, scoops, Tim, Iain, et-al?

 

I guess Van, Gio, Mike and AndyP have crab shit for brains for saying just what I have said all along:(

 

""See the pictures of people in the streets? giving flowers to the soldiers""

 

... and the little children with their limbs blown off by Allied bombs

 

""you lot should hang your heads in shame because if we haddnt gone in these people would still be opressed""

 

... if we (the West) use our technology and power and money to make sure that NOBODY is oppressed in this world then I am happy

 

""The war looks like its going to be over soon, all you tw@ts who didnt want the war, all you peace marching losers, all you sad gits still out there having peace marches, do you really still believe that the war shouldnt have happened???""

 

... I guess you are saying that all people who want peace are 'tw@ts' and 'losers' - fair enough that is your right, not sure I would express it on a public forum though.

 

Peace.

 

Glen

And for any one who thinks this is about oil, you are a f%*king moron. How will this happen? The UN said it is now going to play a huge roll in rebuildling the country and is taking all the money made from the oil into an account to be used for the country, how the f%*k can the UK and US be getting the oil. They are not about to put their own pipes in and have Shell and Texico oil trucks to dive up.

 

It's not exclusively about oil, but it plays a significant part. It's not just about who owns the oil, it's availability and supply. Why else does the world oil price rocket when OPEC realise that the significant percentage of the oil from Iraq may no longer be available for a while.

 

Oil was a signifcant factor in the last conflict and just to prove we couldn't do without their oil we insisted they supply it to the west and gave them food in return - certainly beats a South African or Cuban style trade embargo, eh ?

Originally posted by Mike Duffy

 

Everyone's entitled to a view and it doesn't make them a tree hugging hippy or a war-mongering barbarian just 'coz they have an opposing view point to yours.

 

Thats the difference though! We ARE entitled to a view! Up until today, the Iraqies were not.

 

I hear what you people are saying about war being wrong but I have to take my hate off to the care that was taken in trying to prevent unecessary bloodshed. Ok, so they f*cked up a few times, but considering that Iraq has a population of over 16 million, a few hundred dead civilians is not bad. I don't mean that to sound like, "Oh well - its only a few of them so it doesn't matter" 'cus it does. It's just that, for such a mamouth task, I think the co-alition has done much better than anyone had exected.

 

My mum and her family are refugees and if it wasn't for the British army, there could have been many, many more dead. But the war helped her atleast stay in her country, regardless of the fact that she has been in the UK for 30 years now.

 

I don't like war, but I do feel that this war has been for the right reason. Being put in prison for praying too much is not right by any standards. The Iraq people should be free to choose who should be in power, and they should be able to live in a civility and not be scared to say what they think.

 

Everyone should be entitled to that atleast.

Originally posted by Cos

Thats the difference though! We ARE entitled to a view! Up until today, the Iraqies were not.

 

I hear what you people are saying about war being wrong but I have to take my hate off to the care that was taken in trying to prevent unecessary bloodshed. Ok, so they f*cked up a few times, but considering that Iraq has a population of over 16 million, a few hundred dead civilians is not bad. I don't mean that to sound like, "Oh well - its only a few of them so it doesn't matter" 'cus it does. It's just that, for such a mamouth task, I think the co-alition has done much better than anyone had exected.

 

My mum and her family are refugees and if it wasn't for the British army, there could have been many, many more dead. But the war helped her atleast stay in her country, regardless of the fact that she has been in the UK for 30 years now.

 

I don't like war, but I do feel that this war has been for the right reason. Being put in prison for praying too much is not right by any standards. The Iraq people should be free to choose who should be in power, and they should be able to live in a civility and not be scared to say what they think.

 

Everyone should be entitled to that atleast.

I didn't say the war was right or wrong. I re-read my post and I think I did a remarkable job of staying on the fence! Your quote from my post that you've chosen to use is also impartial. Have I missed the point or are you accusing me of saying something I haven't?

No Mike,

 

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't picking fault with what you said, I was merely tagging on to what you said to make a point.

 

Yes, you did stay on the fence but you also made a good point that something good had come out of all of this.

 

 

Cos

Originally posted by Cos

No Mike,

 

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't picking fault with what you said, I was merely tagging on to what you said to make a point.

 

Yes, you did stay on the fence but you also made a good point that something good had come out of all of this.

 

 

Cos

:) Cheers mate. I think everyone hopes some good will come of this. And, to be honest, today I thought that something good WILL come of this. I've always worried how Iraqis would take to "liberation" being enforced upon them. I've worried that it may be the case that "he may be a dickhead but he's our dickhead"! The scenes today made me think that although there's going to be very hard times ahead, the future looks a lot better than I had previously thought.

Here Here!

Originally posted by Cos

No Mike,

 

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't picking fault with what you said, I was merely tagging on to what you said to make a point.

 

Yes, you did stay on the fence but you also made a good point that something good had come out of all of this.

 

 

Cos

And I just re-read your post and realised that polishing off this crappy Carling that someone brought to my party last week, is making me over sensitive! Apologies mate.

I think if any of you "anti war" had lived in iraq under saddam, you would have a very different view, not that these people were allowed to have a view, to have one and speak out about it would have had you tortured if you were lucky, or would it be death that were more lucky, and as for ; " When people realise that their government is not working in the interest of their people there will be an uprising of some form or another as has happened in most developed countries."

are you for real???, how long should we have waited and done nothing till this didnt happen, and when saddam did decide to go or die, there was a carbon copy there in the form of his son that would have took over where daddy left off, i hate the thought that people had to suffer / die for this, but if you were to do a body count of how many suffered / died for no good reason because of saddams utter greed and cruelty so far, add to that the people who would have been tortured/raped/killed, in the future had we sat and done nothing the difference will be unquestionably huge. Take all the propoganda and lies away and you are still left with a much better prospect, be it oil, popularity, whatever saddams regime is gone and good riddance. Oh by the way this is just my view and opinion that i /we are privelidged to be able to voice, Never forget it

I believe if a person hasent lived in a country where people are supressed / opressed and not been allowed to live in a free and democratic way, you cant really be to qualyfied to go on about what is right or wrong ect based on the fact your looking in on it from an outsiders point of view.Live under that situation before you can really understand what its like. What we saw today in the streets of IRAQ was in no way manufactured for the press ect, i saw that statue go down live, you could see the peoples responce. Why is it that pretty much every singel IRAQ exile or person they have interviewed has been happy as a pig in shit about the end result.

 

America (as bad a place as everyone makes it out to be) is still the best example of a free democratic society and if they can generate a free trade country in the middle east it would benefit every country in the world even if it benefits them more.

 

they are looking after there own interests (and who could really blame them after Spetember the 11th - how quickly people forget)

Have a read up on Oil import and distribution figures for America last year, on paper at least they use 13% of there entire oil from the middle east. So im not 100% convinced its all about oil.

Stablity in a region like this is far mroe in there interests.

Originally posted by Mike Duffy

And I just re-read your post and realised that polishing off this crappy Carling that someone brought to my party last week, is making me over sensitive! Apologies mate.

 

No worries mate!

Originally posted by Van300

 

Every country has a right to govern itself no matter what form it may take. When people realise that their government is not working in the interest of their people there will be an uprising of some form or another as has happened in most developed countries.

 

 

There were many options to dislodge Saddam and his regime. Van

I cant really agree, what if you cant form an uprising because your not cabable of doing it? Thats pretty much the entire point of what has been seen on TV today?

 

And what options are there to dislodge Saddam? wait for him to die? There was no other way he was leaving, have a deaper look into the history of his regime and what they have done in that region. He was militant in every way.

From Gavo, quoting me first.

 

" When people realise that their government is not working in the interest of their people there will be an uprising of some form or another as has happened in most developed countries."

are you for real???, how long should we have waited and done nothing till this didnt happen, and when saddam did decide to go or die, there was a carbon copy there in the...."

 

Yes I am. How long have we 'waited' already? What right do we have to play god. Every country has a right to develop and evolve in their own time, surely.

 

Most civilisations were ruled by such leaders and with time have grown to cherish freedom and free will. We, in the western world, believe this to be our right-we've earned it. When Iraqis want this bad enough they would revolt. They haven't/didn't because perhaps the regime wasn't bad enough for them to risk their lives for. They could bear it. Different civilisations have varying degrees of tolerance- they have a higher one than us to civil rights, freedom of speech etc.

 

If we liberate Iraq for the Iragi's benefit and for the good of humanity lets continue with the remaining oppressed countries. In for a penny in for a pound. How long can we go on without huge tax inflations or any benefits from winning?

 

On the point of oil, sooner or later it will run out. When oil available to the western world dries up, 10/20 years from now perhaps, and Iraq had remained under Saddam's or A N Other's oppressive regime and trading with Iraq was still banned who would be calling the shots???? How much can Iraq sell their oil for? America doesn't want to be in that scenerio, they are protecting their interests- they would rather we all run out of oil together.

 

The rebuilding of Iraq will be underway soon. The cost will be paid in oil. What rate will they be priced at and who determines the going rate for oil? I am sure when the time comes and Iraqis are able to govern themselves democratically they won't forget who liberated them when selling oil.

 

I do believe in war when it's justified so I am not truly anti-war in all conflicts. Even though I feel this war was wrong I look forward to cheap petrol in the near future.

Im was all for the war, but if they'd of said at the start that they were going to pay for it with our road tax, i may have paused for thought!!!!!

Originally posted by Cos

...Being put in prison for praying too much is not right by any standards....

 

Yep! Just a nice padded cell would suffice :D:D:D Sorry :D

Originally posted by gavo

I think if any of you "anti war" had lived in iraq under saddam, you would have a very different view, not that these people were allowed to have a view, to have one and speak out about it would have had you tortured if you were lucky, or would it be death that were more lucky, and as for ; " When people realise that their government is not working in the interest of their people there will be an uprising of some form or another as has happened in most developed countries."

are you for real???, how long should we have waited and done nothing till this didnt happen, and when saddam did decide to go or die, there was a carbon copy there in the form of his son that would have took over where daddy left off, i hate the thought that people had to suffer / die for this, but if you were to do a body count of how many suffered / died for no good reason because of saddams utter greed and cruelty so far, add to that the people who would have been tortured/raped/killed, in the future had we sat and done nothing the difference will be unquestionably huge. Take all the propoganda and lies away and you are still left with a much better prospect, be it oil, popularity, whatever saddams regime is gone and good riddance. Oh by the way this is just my view and opinion that i /we are privelidged to be able to voice, Never forget it

 

 

I was just about to post a similar thing in reply to Van300's post ;)