Hi,

 

Most people know that I work as a FireFighter and if anybody wants to ask me questions about the strike, feel free.

 

The current state of play with a firefighter is that they clear £46 a day, most of my colleagues want to be able to afford to buy their own home and support their Families without relying on income support. I like many others have to depend upon other forms of income, (hence the reason why I can afford to run more than one car).

 

If anybody wants to, feel free to contribute any wind ups, insults and other distractions to the real issue, LOL, I've got some Hope!!

 

Mark

Thanks Chris C, that's better!

 

On to the serious stuff - I'm concerned about this strike. Something's rotten in the state of Denmark.

 

Can I start from my opinion that anyone who saves my life gets my vote and support for a decent wage. I include firefighters (even TopLess who have more Zs than me :) ) nurses, PCs, ATCs, all our forces. And any one I forgot.

 

But how come the FBU leaders suddenly decided earlier this year that they were 40% behind where they should be? Were they asleep during the last 25 year's negotiations? Not very good performance for their members...

 

I can't remember the last time any pay claim anywhere from any union in any country reached 40%. And I remember the last national FBU strike. So what idiot thought this was a "realistic" figure to go for?

 

Someone somewhere is spoiling for a fight and I can't work out why :(

Originally posted by Gio

Someone somewhere is spoiling for a fight and I can't work out why :(

 

That'll be Senna ;)

Personally I was never for direct action from any sector - it always struck me as very old Labour, and that's something I can't stand.. And probably partly because I had two parents in the RAF for umpteen years, watched my dad get passed by for promotion, get very little in the way of payrises, get put at risk in the Gulf, and he had no option of striking - because he'd have been shot as a deserter..

 

But, I am behind the firemen on this..

 

Lets put it this way - when they are pulling me from the burning twisted reckage of my car, I'd much rather have a motivated, well paid, well trained fireman doing it, than a demotivated fireman, or someone they just dragged in off the street, because he'd work for half the money the experienced firemen would work for..

 

Hell, I drove past two fire stations on the way home tonight (and one is a detour), just so I could beep my horn :D

 

Lets not forget, these people save OUR lives (as do, as someone else said, nurses, etc etc, all of whom are underpaid).

Hi,

 

Well thanks for the response, just come back from the pub and I hope I can answer everybody's queries!

 

Firstly thanks for the support and apologies to anyone who has suffered because of this action. I know of no Firefighters who want to take this action, but 90% voted that it is their only redress to this problem.

 

OK it seems there has been a bit of misinformation spread about which I will try to address.

 

The Mp's and Tony Blair received a substantial payrise a while ago which they gladly granted themselves.

 

The unions and the employers of fire fighters employed the services of the same review board, which determined the Mp's pay. To complete a study to determine what firefighters should be paid. The two figures they came up with were £32k and £30k, the union chose to adopt the lower figure!

This is where the figure of 30K or a 40% payrise has come from!

 

Once again this board was good enough to determine MP's pay!

 

By the way, if Firefighters had been granted the same percentage payrises as MP's over the last 25 years, the FireFighters pay would be 36K per Annum.

 

Which Public Servants Last Payrise was over 40%?

 

Ans= Tony Blair

 

By the way, when you are buying your Zed, do you always offer the buyer the full asking price?

 

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A few people have said, Fire Fighters know what they are getting into when they join!

 

 

Yes they do or did, but the current pay formula was worked out in 1977 and related FF's pay to semiskilled workers, which is a dwindling workforce, and the dwindling manufacturing industry in which they mostly reside.

 

The pay increases have been reducing over the last twenty years and that is why we have been trying to play catchup now.

 

The employers have also acknowledged that the increase in the knowledge and skills have moved this to a skilled workers position and the pay should be reflected accordingly.

The training and knowledge and working practices

are infinite and keeping a lid upon this is very difficult!

 

 

 

Secondly on this point, when most FF's join the job usually they

are youngish, single and don't have any kids.

 

These situations change, don't FF's deserve to be able to raise their children without claiming State support, which many do Now.

And also to raise their children in some modicum of a financially stable environment!Why should FF's families suffer?

 

By the way, FF's get paid a flat rate after 4 years of 21,500.

With very little Overtime to enhance that, and no other enhancements apart from local weighting allowances of which mine in London is 3k

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So why don't FF's leave their job and get a better paid one, some of you say, as I know when I joined, you had a 100 to 1 chance of getting in!

 

The cost of recruiting and training the new FF's would definitely outweigh the economic benefits of paying them low wages.

 

Secondly there is the question of experience, twenty year firefighters are often consulted by senior managers on how to resolve incidents, because they have seen it before!

 

When I first entered a fire you fell the heat envelope you, you are shitting yourself because you honestly don't know hot it is going to get. Your ringpiece is dilating to the size of a HKS tailpipe and your mind is running around like a headless chicken!

You get so hot sometimes the sweat trapped between your clothes turns to steam and burns you. But I got through this because a more experienced FF guides you calmly through it!

 

Today I am that more experienced FF, which one would you rather have rescue your kids? One that is inexperienced, underpaid, demoralised and is so tired moon lighting his arse off to do his job properly? Or a properly paid professional?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Yes we get a great Pension!

 

Because FF's PAY for it!

 

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FF's shouldn't strike because it is Moral Blackmail!

 

Who is blackmailing who?

 

Are the Gov getting cheap workers by saying it is immoral for FF's to strike? But Continuing to underpay them!

 

The last essex and merseyside strikes have been to save Fire engines from being cut, saving the publics lives.

 

Hardly the actions of Selfish blackmailers!

 

This is the second time in 100 years the FBU has existed that it has striked nationally!

 

Andy Gilchrist has a poster of Che Guvara on his wall, big deal, he has done what the membership has voted for, not what he wants!

 

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Lastly

 

John Newcombe if it came down to me or a Para giving you mouth to mouth, He gets my Vote.

 

He Has trained for a 15 Second Lifespan:D

 

Mark

Mark while I served in HM's Gravy I was trained to quite a high level in fire fighting techniques in fire fighting and me old man was aswell as he served with the RFA and then as a Radio Officer on the cross channel fairies!

 

It is a scary job make no mistake, I also did the Duke of Edinburgh awards with the local firefighters before I got near the Navy with the Sea Cadets when I was a sproglet.

 

Fires at sea are nowt short of fcuking horrific and once we were called to a tanker called the Drastirious in the Indian Ocean. Decks were so hot you wouldn't believe it, engine room fire etc. Will never forget it!!!

 

So trust me mate when I say that I know what you guys do 1st hand and IMO you deserve the full 40 percent rise.

 

Anyone who can put their lives at risk like that on a daily basis is stark raving bonkers as when I was serving in the RN the probability of a major fire out of war time was fairly slim.

 

You have my full backing mate along with all your colleagues.

 

Fcuk Tony Blair and DON'T back down like we did over the fuel strikes! Labour are a cancer in Govt and them being in power has fcuked my living up beyond belief.

 

Good luck mate, and I hope you get the deserved raise. Asking people to risk their lives for less than 20K a year in this day and age is not right.

Cheers Tim,

 

I have never had a ship fire (middle of london), only trained on landlocked ships set alight for training.

 

They are truly horrific, being made of steel it conducts the heat all around the ship so you cannot touch anything around you!

 

I will make no further comments regarding a vehicles construction not being of metal, and the advantages of plastic vehicle construction!;)

 

Mark

Originally posted by TopLess

Cheers Tim,

 

I have never had a ship fire (middle of london), only trained on landlocked ships set alight for training.

 

They are truly horrific, being made of steel it conducts the heat all around the ship so you cannot touch anything around you!

 

I will make no further comments regarding a vehicles construction not being of metal, and the advantages of plastic vehicle construction!;)

 

Mark

 

Didn't mean that mate, just know what you guys are going through. Ship fires are one thing. You guys can have a hoax call, a cat out of a tree or a full blown RTA or a burning inferno etc.

 

I rest my case, good luck mate and I hope you get what you deserve as I am right behind you bud.

 

Last night on Sky I think it was 52 percent in favour of you guys getting the pay increase...too right!!!

The reason your pay increases have got smaller over the last few years is because inflation has been low!

Most workers have been lucky to get more than 2-5%.Lets say you did get a 30-40% increase,how long before other employees strike for the same?Inflation will rise along with food and house prices.

You will therefore be back in the same position as before.

How many older firemen are on the basic fireman's pay?I thought that you have different ranks within each station?Isn't it like the Army,where everyone seems to be an officer of some kind?(eg.corporal,sergeant)

In the area I live anyone earning £21k is considered RICH :D

An friend of mine left a warehousing job to become a fireman because he considered it fairly well paid...and yes he has a wife and two sprogs to support.His wife works also and they hardly seem to be struggling.

If you live outside the south East of England then the cost of living is much lower.I am sure there are better ways to help those in London and the SE,perhaps by giving Nurses, Firemen etc. subsidised mortgages which they could pay back if they moved to a cheaper area i.e. the midlands, wales and the north!

Anyway,we don't want a return to the dark days of the 1970s and another"winter of discontent" do we?

Hi All, I also dont agree with the stikes, but our looney government would just ignore the Firmen if they didnt strike. So, in reality what choice do they have?

Of course, if all of the Firemen were imigants they would get £40k pa.

And they wouldnt even have to speak English.

I just wonder how bad this country will get before we do something about it and kick out all of the stupid politians.....

Revolution anyone?

Count me in for the revolution.

 

Well, that's TWO people already!

TimBo,

 

I wasn't getting all serious on you, I was referring to your motor!!

LOL.

 

Japcar , The older fireman are on the same pay, there is one more increment after 15years and that is it!

 

Our pay increases have got smaller becuase they are linked to unrepresentative and inaccurate sections of the earning population, not because of inflation.

 

A leading fireman earns £70 a month more than a fireman.for being responsible for a fire appliance and crew

 

A Sub officer earns £100 a month more than a fireman.for being responsible for a whole station and crews.

 

I cannot comment on areas income outside of London, I do not live there.

 

Since there is a worry about negative inflation at the moment , that takes care of that argument.

The house prices have been removed from the retail price index so you do not have worry about FF's pay shooting inflation up that way!

 

 

Mark

Originally posted by TopLess

TimBo,

 

I wasn't getting all serious on you, I was referring to your motor!!

LOL.

 

Good luck anyway bud you guys do a cracking job. About a year after me Ma and Pa moved into their cottage in De Wales they had a chimney fire which took out most of the roof.

 

Local fire geezers did a great job and me Mum and Dad are forever indebted to them.

I really hope it works out for you lads (and girls) you do a great job and should be rewarded for it fairly

If the Tories had stayed in power they were going to privatise the Fire Service!This may still happen under Labour, with local authorities forced to put the fire service out to private tender.

 

I would make the most of your pay rise,as once your employer is a private company you are more likely to be asked to take a pay cut, not a rise:D

 

These companies would then obtain their income not from local rate payers,but from the insurance companies of victims of fires and accidents.Just hope you don't live in a bad postal code area!

 

Remember the Bin Men used to strike on a regular basis,holding the Country to ransom...They don't now they are privately run!

I am not advocating this course of events,but it's probably going to happen eventually anyway.

 

House on fire?....then you'll have a choice of "Virgin Fire and Rescue" or "Securicor Home Fire Service" :D....Only if you have paid your insurance premiums of course!!

Scarily true.........privatised emergency services. Sadly we are heading that way even quicker...thanks to the FFS and Mr. Andy Gilchrist - the Fire Brigades Union (FBU) leader.

 

Get real guys...40%...LMFAO.....you really think Andy Gilchrist has the members interests at heart? Seems more apparent that Mr. Gilchrist has Mr. Gilchrists interests uppermost in his mind. The FFS are a vehicle for this mans ambition.

Remember the strength of the NUM? Remember good old 'King' Arthur Scargill? Well he had a comfortable Union job for life....what about the majority of his members? 'Kin dole queue - that's what. You aren't going to get 40%. It is unlikely that you will get 20% - and at what price is it going to come?

 

We are all very good at spending other people's money - yeah, give 'em 40%. We're all going to put our hands in our pockets for that are we? Sorry, not from me....anyone that willfully puts the public's life in danger...well, there are a number of words for that and 'Hero' most definitely isn't amongst them!

 

Maybe it's only the people that I speak to...but there is NOT a great deal of public support amongst them. ITV's survey revealed that 3 weeks ago 55% backed the 40% (FFS! No, this time I don't mean Fire Fighting Service) claim....now it's down to 44%. What do you think will happen when there are a few deaths?

 

Yes it IS a dangerous job...so is being in the services, and, as has been pointed out they CAN'T strike. My own opinion (for that is all that I am giving) is that it is reprehensible for people in such a position to 'withold their labour' - it indicates a moral bankruptcy.

 

One avoidable death is one too many.....what percentage pay rise is that worth?

in the armed services, if you are on active duty, then all board and lodgings are provided for you, however long the active period is for ?

 

no mortgage or rent to pay, no food to buy, no utility bills...

 

you only pay when you are back in barracks or whatever ?

 

when you are in the forces, generally you have to live where you are stationed ? do you have a choice about that ?

 

when you are in the forces, you do not have a daily commute to work, unless you choose to live outside of the provided accomodation ?

 

if public service employees lived and worked in an area where the cost of living was reflected in their wages, then London would be a dangerous place to live, with no public services at all....

Seems Like I am replying to people who don't want to bother reading the whole thread, and I am not gonna reprint old answers to people who can't read past the page three of The Sun!

Can I say that the Fire Fighters are NOT putting peoples lives in danger. The people are already in danger and its the Firefighters job to get them out of danger.

However every one is saying they are putting lives at risk. When Micheal Schumacher goes round a track at 200mph its not the fire department who has put his life at risk, he has. When I drive my car home the fire service is not putting my life at risk. But when an incident happens, its not the peoples fault that the accident happend or fire started, or its not just an accident, its the fire fighters fault they are in danger. Its not. Its something that the government keeps regurgitating to try and push the public against them.

 

Fire Fighters get paid aprox £6 an hour. People in the call centre where I work start at £6. You get £5.70 per hour for working an evening at McDonalds.

 

Stuart

Whichever way you look at it by striking of course they are putting lives at risk.

 

A surgeon doesn't put a patients life at risk....but if he walks away from doing the operation then he most certainly does.

 

If you sincerely believe that their action is not placing lives at risk (yes, I know they don't actually START the fires...) then I guess you need a visa to visit the particular planet that you live on.

 

 

Yes....I have read the whole thread.......No, I can't see answers to my particular questions.

 

Sorry...don't read the Sun, not even as far as page three....I am old enough to form my own opinions.........

Originally posted by kinace

Whichever way you look at it by striking of course they are putting lives at risk.

 

A surgeon doesn't put a patients life at risk....but if he walks away from doing the operation then he most certainly does.

 

 

anyone who takes strike action could possibly be putting lives at risk, regardless of vocation

 

a surgeon who chooses not to operate, is that not a strike against the patient ?

 

when the tube drivers strike, that puts lives at risk...

there are more cars on the road, more pedestrians, more cyclists/motorcyclists and more people trying to cram onto buses

makes london more hazardous

 

when the binmen went on strike, that put peoples lives at risk

 

when the miners went on strike, all those people that relied on fossil fuel for heating homes.. especially old people.. risking lives ?

 

what about the fuel strike last year ?

ambulances and fire engines without fuel.... lives at risk ?

 

i'm not having a go at you personally kinace, these are my opinions...

 

what other action would you suggest they take ?

if every other type of action produced no results, what next ?

 

if the firefighters left their jobs en masse to find better paid ones if the strike fails... how long until we have a fully trained and fully manned fire service again ?

 

more lives at risk ? for leaving a job because they cant afford to live on those wages ?

 

there is no final solution, and no right or wrong

Can I start by repeating that I think the Firefighters should be paid more.

 

But there are a couple of points. Many fires are caused by people's stupidity - so they are the ones putting their lives at risk. The firefighters then risk their own lives in order to rescue idiots.

 

It's true that withdrawing cover increases the risk to people but if people were more careful, there wouldn't be the risk in the first place.

 

That's one

 

The 2nd is that I went past a Fire Station today and there was some, how shall I put it, selective reporting of some facts (not criticising - there is a propaganda battle between employees / employers so just accept this).

 

One poster has moved me to comment. It said £22,000 after 20 years. Which is only partially true. A firefighter who passed probation today would indeed get £22k - like any colleague of that rank. But in 20 years time, they would not just be on £22k - they would have had 20 years of pay rises.

 

The 3rd and last is that - according the the Grauniad who generally support left wingers, unions, socialism and all that stuff - the current starting salary is £21,531. In New York, the starting salary is £20,749. After a 2 year pay battle (no striking and being without contract for 2 years) they just agreed a starting salary of £22,803 (10% rise).

 

Oh and one last thing, I am wrinkly enough to remember the last a Labour government got into a battle with the unions. This led to 19 years of Tory misrule - schools funding slashed, NHS deeper in the mire, no infrastructure spending, crap roads and - to nick another thread - a society where the youngsters have grown up with the Thatcherite message of greed, look out for No1, no respect for others etc etc.

 

Please buddha don't make the same mistake twice. (and they still deserve more money - just I think their leadership worries me).

I fully agree that firemen should be paid more...along with many other public sector employees. I just happen to feel that they are going the wrong way about it.

 

By their actions they are only making the Government more entrenched. Do you REALLY think that they (the Govt.) will give way on this? Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation they cannot afford to loose - it will open the door for all sorts of claims from the public sector - each with varying degrees of merit, but all no doubt claiming to be a 'special case'.

They will monitor the public reaction, provide the usual mis-information and unfortunately maximise the inevitable 'aviodable' deaths.

 

Of course I appreciate that the 40% is a starting point and I'm pretty sure (again, purely my opinion) that they would settle for 25% or maybe even 20%.

 

To use the original analogy...'would you pay the full price being asked for a Z'....well, you wouldn't ...would you...you would negotiate. But there again if the guy says he wants £50k for it you just walk away......because it is SO unreasonable.

 

The very fact that the figure used as a start point is 40% is, in the eyes of many people just SO unreasonable. That is not a way to garner public support, nor is withdrawing the service that they provide.

Craig.........the bit about the surgeon....that is MY POINT!

 

As for what they do........well, learning a lesson from history would be a start. Whither the NUM?Yes, a damned good pun too.

IMO,

Good luck to anyone who can negotiate a sizeable pay increase!As long as they do it morally and within the law.

 

The reality is that Firemen are not going to suddenly leave the job in droves, as what else out there will pay them similar money....and don't say McDonalds :D!!

 

If Firemen do chose to leave, it will be in small numbers and those positions will be readily filled by unskilled workers who are currently earning much less.

 

Yes Firemen are skilled...but skilled in firefighting, which counts for nothing in the wider job market.

 

How many ex Policemen and Firemen now work as security guards at places like Tescos for peanuts?

 

Strikes rarely have the desired LONG TERM effect, except for the egos of overpaid Union leaders. :D

Must go....I think the chip pan's on fire!! :D

People keep going on about the 40%. Lets look at it another way.

 

Firefighters want to get paid the same amount as other public servants. As stated before teachers, police officers, nurses, doctors to name all get a lot more than a Firefighter after working 10 years or so. All of their pay rises every year and they all starts on about £18,000 a year. However after 10 years, teachers get about £28,000 polive get about £28,000 and even nurses get about £28,000, rough figures. However, Firefighters start on about £18,000 and then doesnt go any higher than £21,000.

Plus it is not every firefighter getting a 40% pay rise, its the potential of getting a maximum of about £30,000 a year before tax for working for 10 years and for daily risking thier lives to save others and property.