i am wanting the car 2knock out about 450 comfortably while not drinking to much juice, the car is now running at 405 on boost alone with standard injectors which i've being told is a big nono, the engine which has covered 30000 miles throw a rod outer lower end and is going to a mechanic to be rebuilt so i'm thinking i might aswell put a few added extras while its in bits. so out of experience could someone tell me what i'd possibility get in the £500 range in parts and also the £1000 range if i do decide to go all out for the 450bhp target

500 quit will just get your engine back up and running ..

1000 may get u some nice new pistons

 

Wiseco pistons $575.00

Eagle Forged Rods: $475.00

Nissan Gasket Rebuild kit $365.00

 

Engine Block re-bore/Deck £200>250

Head Skimming and Valves reseated £150>200

 

budget is quit low m8

I think he means extras as in on top of his build mate,

If that is the case then bigger injectors and upgrade the turbo's/ intercooler

But yes should deffo fit forged pistons in the rebuild

smithy

I think he means extras as in on top of his build mate,

If that is the case then bigger injectors and upgrade the turbo's/ intercooler

But yes should deffo fit forged pistons in the rebuild

smithy

i was smithy your right, mark always seems 2just see pound signs everytime a thread pops up haha

i'd ideally want to do it without the turbos if possible because ive got a fairly low mileage set on the car now

i've got a company locally who can rebore and skim

it was actually advice on the injectors and pistons i wanted more than anything as i'm clueless about them upgraded intercoolers and radiator will be changed over the next few weeks before the rebuilt engine is added

"so i'm thinking i might aswell put a few added extras while its in bits. so out of experience could someone tell me what i'd possibility get in the £500 range in parts and also the £1000 range if i do decide to go all out for the 450bhp target"

 

to what i read above sound like what Parts you could get for your engine as its in bit to upgrade it ..

isnt that what i posted about pistons/rods and stuff

yes i did include about machining work but that wasnt stated that your engineer place was doing that anyways

 

i only posted what i thought was reliveant to your Q ... ££££ was only going on your budget

now now I feel a sxx coming

"so i'm thinking i might aswell put a few added extras while its in bits. so out of experience could someone tell me what i'd possibility get in the £500 range in parts and also the £1000 range if i do decide to go all out for the 450bhp target"

 

to what i read above sound like what Parts you could get for your engine as its in bit to upgrade it ..

isnt that what i posted about pistons/rods and stuff

yes i did include about machining work but that wasnt stated that your engineer place was doing that anyways

 

 

 

 

i only posted what i thought was reliveant to your Q ... ££££ was only going on your budget

 

i wasnt disagreeing with you mark it was just a little dig and i can see the intent in which you placed your thread i think your direction might be the best direction for the road but obviously is over my budget as it would need upgraded injectors also, what other piston options are they if any. surely 450 can be hit comfortably for cheaper than a grand in parts

that is the Cheap options in the parts i listed m8 Injectors are still going to set u back £300+

 

Providing the you get New Uprated bearings on the rods and main .. and the Pistons and Rings are good ..

get some new 555 injectors and get it mapped you be looking at 400+ and reliable too

1. 450bhp is a walk in the park for any Japanese 2.5-3L turbocharged engine (VG/6G72/RB/1JZ/2JZ). Even my stock 1.8L CA18DET made 400+ for well over a year before being sold on.

2. 405bhp on 6 x 370cc injectors is perfectly fine with appropriate mapping.

 

Increase engine efficiency to decrease fuel consumption, although at the point where a VG is producing 450bhp, fuel consumption is a moot point... Low load scenarios: Fuel consumption will be no different until you start with high-lift cams that require a richer AFR at idle & cruise.

 

the car is now running at 405 on boost alone

 

What does "on boost alone" mean?

 

If you're genuinely looking to hit 450bhp as cheaply as possible, you'd be surprised what can be accomplished. You don't NEED larger injectors, for a start. You definitely don't need forged pistons. I'd be surprised if there's one VG30DETT in this country right now that actually requires aftermarket con rods....

 

Most importantly, 450bhp is not at the expense of sufficient reliability with a road car. Obviously if you're spending 99% of the time at WOT on track, then it's big rad, big injectors, big turbos, forged pistons, aftermarket EMS with decent knock control & individual cylinder mapping.

 

For the average road car, however:

Fully uprated exhaust system (elbows, downpipe decats, cat back, manifolds if cheap enough & engine is out).

Dual intakes.

2.5" intercooler pipework from turbo outlet to throttle bodies, smooth bends & as short as possible. Think outside the box as far as IC placement is concerned.

Most efficient intercooler(s) you can find. To help reduce the strain on the turbos, you want minimal pressure loss. To make the power, you need the coldest charge possible.

Grade 8 spark plugs.

 

If BSFC isn't reduced sufficiently with the above mods (all engines are different), then an adjustable fuel pressure regulator will give a bit of leeway with fuel delivery (3.5bar base fuel pressure = 400cc equivalent injectors, plus the fuel pump can cope at 1.5bar over atmosphere).

 

You don't need to spend crazy money buying lots of parts to make power with the VG. What you do need to do is remove all the restrictions & compromises brought about by the factory installation/shoe-horning of Nissan's finest powerplant into the engine bay of a luxurious Grand Tourer. You don't hear RB26 owners talking about pistons & rods at a woeful 400bhp and RB #6 cyl ringlands are probably more susceptible to damage than VG #5 & 6 cyl ringlands.

 

If an engine throws a rod, it's due to either a mechanical defect, component failure, poor build or bad mapping (piston melts, little end enjoys new-found freedom and shoots for the stars). Any idea what caused the 30k miler to go?

 

Having said ALL this though, if you're actually going to the trouble of building/rebuilding an engine as opposed to just buying a second-hand one, you may as well build it with forged items to handle 600+ in the future, because all you need for 450bhp is a half-decent stock VG & bolt-ons.

Edited March 29, 201312 yr by Noz
clarification of "405bhp"

Mate you pays your money and you takes your chance!

Having been round zeds for around 13 years i can tell you and even from experience if your engine is out and being rebuilt, not fitting forged pistons is IMO nuts!

The zed is over 20 years old now, generally had quite a few owners, it only takes one of them to have had too much boost at one point and the engine has/could suffer detonation.

Given the age also means parts are far more worn now than ever.

Having owned a zed with a brand new nissan supplied engine i seen No.6 (most common) piston blow at Thor RR day, previous owner had ran too much boost and the car wasn't mapped for it. Engine by now had only done 37,000 miles

Series 1/2 zeds suffer less fuel to No 6 and is only a problem when increasing boost pressure.

Wiseco's are about the cheapest on the market and most common used IMO.

 

Also bare in mind mapping zeds has NEVER previously been a common feature, chipping has unless chasing seriously high figures or tracking and even then using stand alone units.

Again IMO i wouldn't want my car mapped to achieve the highest bhp possible using standard injectors which are donkey's years old with soooo many these days giving up and to be perfectly honest, i've not seen (in the UK) before zeds make real 450bhp on standard injectors despite what's written above.

 

Injectors ain't expensive, easy to do and i'd rather have them running easily within their parameters than a set of old stockies which can only be at their maximum to achieve the same result.

Not everyone has the ability to have a car mapped each time to suit an ongoing build or project and whilst a really good mapper can make a car run really well and fast they can also create figures that peeps want to see............

 

Smithy

Ideally, everyone would have an endless budget for modifying their cars. But they don't.

 

The OP doesn't, and has specifically asked about 450bhp as cheaply as possible. My post was specifically in response to his situation alone. Fitting forged pistons when the engine is out is cost effective and always recommended. Fitting new injectors is preferable. Fitting new everything makes my job a lot easier, as well.

 

Poor mapping will kill an engine that is 100 miles old.

 

Mapping a 300zx is no different to mapping anything else, the technology has been around for donkey's years. Since the late 80's in fact. It's insane to think that people will spend thousands fitting all their shiny new engine parts and then rely on a decade-old generic chip off the net to keep everything in one piece.

Not everyone has the ability to have a car mapped each time to suit an ongoing build or project and whilst a really good mapper can make a car run really well and fast they can also create figures that peeps want to see............

 

Smithy

 

LOL!!

 

Air filters, back boxes, lots of boost on Auto turbos & stock injectors: 394bhp, 410lb·ft & 13.1s @ 110mph (at 382bhp,

 

Had a BDC car on the dyno yesterday, S13 with 2L SR20DET. Won the Semi-Pro class last season with a remote-mapped CHIP & dautherboard that I supplied. He ran a shade over 300bhp on a dyno near him (Essex way)

 

Yesterday, the same chip/map ran 295bhp & 329lb·ft on the dyno I use.

 

As I have said a long time ago, anyone doubting figures I give are more than welcome to come & see me or any of my cars in action, either up the strip or on the dyno :)

 

***EDIT:

I have actually given out a slightly lower figure & plot in the past before, as I wasn't absolutely 100% sure the dyno wasn't reading slightly high when the car in question appeared to be making too much power (it was accurate though, of course). It matters not a jot to me what the cars actually make. Air goes in, fuel goes in, timing is dialled in, torque is produced. Power output is simply a numerical result of this. What kind of sense would it make to inflate numbers to then have them take the car elsewhere only to be disappointed and question my abilities/ethics. Just because you yourself were not able to get the most out of a Zed in 13 years, please don't allude to number fudging in response to a post I make addressing a specific scenario for an individual (the OP).

 

Again IMO i wouldn't want my car mapped to achieve the highest bhp possible using standard injectors which are donkey's years old with soooo many these days giving up and to be perfectly honest, i've not seen (in the UK) before zeds make real 450bhp on standard injectors despite what's written above.

 

And that is YOUR prerogative. Not everybody's. If someone picks up a cheap TT Zed for £800 and wants 400+bhp, the option is there without having to spend an absolute fortune on parts that are not required. The Zed is a perfect candidate for both methods of approach, as it can be both a cheap banger or a 5-figure tour-de-force.

Edited March 29, 201312 yr by Noz

Noz i assure you that i was more than happy with the power my own zed produced and maintained for a number of years.

Having been in the modifying game for well over 20 years and 5 of them as a supplier of performance parts to most Jap cars, i've been around and seen enough to know what a mapper can do and make no reference to any particular one :-)

 

TBH the idea of increasing his I/C pipework at the level he's aiming for and the cost of them supply/fit IMO would not see the same gains as fitting bigger injectors.

I'll be honest and say that having been around a number of Nissan and Mitsubishi tuning specialists since i can remember, injector wise has always been either add a couple more (SE old way) or simply increase cc size to achieve higher and safer power for longer term.

 

So far to gain his power desires i've stated bigger injectors, the pistons was simply a common sense and safegaurd feature which obviously in itself does not incrase power, better coolers and that's it.

This of course is assuming all stage 1-2 items such as intake and exhaust and de-catts have already been done :-)

smithy

 

If you're genuinely looking to hit 450bhp as cheaply as possible, you'd be surprised what can be accomplished. You don't NEED larger injectors, for a start. You definitely don't need forged pistons. I'd be surprised if there's one VG30DETT in this country right now that actually requires aftermarket con rods....

 

I believe mine does :D however we will speak off air about this when the time comes.

Noz i assure you that i was more than happy with the power my own zed produced and maintained for a number of years.

Having been in the modifying game for well over 20 years and 5 of them as a supplier of performance parts to most Jap cars, i've been around and seen enough to know what a mapper can do and make no reference to any particular one :-)

 

TBH the idea of increasing his I/C pipework at the level he's aiming for and the cost of them supply/fit IMO would not see the same gains as fitting bigger injectors.

I'll be honest and say that having been around a number of Nissan and Mitsubishi tuning specialists since i can remember, injector wise has always been either add a couple more (SE old way) or simply increase cc size to achieve higher and safer power for longer term.

 

So far to gain his power desires i've stated bigger injectors, the pistons was simply a common sense and safegaurd feature which obviously in itself does not incrase power, better coolers and that's it.

This of course is assuming all stage 1-2 items such as intake and exhaust and de-catts have already been done :-)

smithy

 

But increasing the size of injectors gives NO GAINS WHATSOEVER. Sorry, but this statement is very, very wrong. Reducing intake restrictions is essential to lowering BSFC (more power for the fuel used).

 

I've been mapping various OEM systems for nearly a decade now: Bosch Motronic, Weber-Marelli, Nissan Jecs. I have a good idea of what is achievable and what is not when it comes to mapping. This comes from actually doing it, not from being around it...

 

I had a 5th injector on my old Fiat Uno Turbo 10 years ago. It's a terrible approach. But again, just by increasing the fuel delivery abilities, you don't achieve any more power whatsoever.

Edited March 29, 201312 yr by Noz

i believe mine does :d however we will speak off air about this when the time comes.

 

Look forward to it :thumbup1:

Your missing the point, i am not saying gains as such from the injectors, i am saying IMO unless he installs bigger injectors which "allow" him to safely increase his power by any means he chooses, by staying stock injectors his risks are far greater and his end goal may not actually be achieved.

 

It's his money/time etc and obviously his choice to make, have seen more Zedders than i can count come on this forum with their ideas (some cheap and some not) of tuning to see them later being broken up or yet another rebuild.

 

These cars can cost more in repairs to a tired engine than they can some times cost to buy the actual car!

 

smithy

I'm not missing the point, I know exactly what the OP is looking to achieve and also how it can be achieved. That IS the point of my posting on this thread from the viewpoint of someone that knows what is attainable, not what he's been told or read.

 

Although I try to steer away from bhp figures being the be-all & end-all, the VG makes peak power at roughly 6000rpm. After this point with stock turbos boost pressure drop off drastically, hence the injectors aren't as troubled as you'd think. Bigger turbos, you need larger injectors due to the air flow at higher RPMs. I didn't get close to maxing the stock 370s at 21psi and standard fuel pressure with single intake, stock intercoolers and cats in place (less efficient = higher BSFC). The log file has been posted.

 

If the OP is keeping stock turbos and has a strict budget, he needs to concentrate on increasing engine efficiency, therefore maximising the STOCK set up. There's no grey area if those are the stipulations: dual intakes, 2.5" charge piping, very efficient intercoolers, turbo elbows, manifolds if within budget. If required, he needs to increase the fuel pressure slightly. What use are larger injectors if the restrictions mean you've got to push 1.6 bar boost pressure on stock turbos? Getting the stock turbos to make 450bhp without their reliability nose-diving is the obstacle that needs to be overcome here. It is not simply a case of one solution fits all. As I said, he needs to think outside the box to overcome budget restraints.

Edited March 29, 201312 yr by Noz

Noz, it was MY point i was saying your missing, not his.

 

I think we've debated enough on this guys thread and he has enough to choose from eh.

We'll have to agree to disagree as enlarging I/C piping, fitting new elbows and manifolds at great cost on a stock-ish Zed to achieve greater power as at his level are not restrictive, is not what i would do personally, but you would so no biggie.

 

cheers

smithy

I wasn't missing your point either, but fitting larger injectors isn't a solution to the OP's question. Plus, I didn't appreciate you insinuating I could be fudging numbers ;)

 

I answered the OP, you addressed myself. Fitting larger injectors is not going to help produce the power he requires with stock turbos. He needs to build up a 2.5" intake kit, not have a bespoke one made, source some turbo elbows (they're easily cheap enough) and investigate the stock manifolds and whether or not he can afford/find a set of 2nd hand items.

 

Everything he buys/fits/modifies HAS to increase efficiency for him to achieve his end goal first & foremost. A slight increase in fuel delivery if required can be sorted with an ADJUSTABLE FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR (my Nismo adj FPR cost £20), NOT a set of larger injectors.

 

P.S. Yes I would, having seen how much stockish VGs make power-wise and also how they behave on the road with a dual intake set up first hand ;)

 

The intake piping, elbows & manifolds are restrictive at ALL power levels. How on earth do you think Nissan managed to keep a 3L V6 Twin Turbo engine down to 300bhp (apart from the terrible stock map). You need to look into how it all affects the way that power is produced.

Edited March 29, 201312 yr by Noz

Noz, it was MY point i was saying your missing, not his.

 

I think we've debated enough on this guys thread and he has enough to choose from eh.

We'll have to agree to disagree as enlarging I/C piping, fitting new elbows and manifolds at great cost on a stock-ish Zed to achieve greater power as at his level are not restrictive, is not what i would do personally, but you would so no biggie.

 

cheers

smithy

 

nah it's ok keep it coming i'l be able to build the engine myself by the time you's have finished giving me all your info. thankyou

1. 450bhp is a walk in the park for any Japanese 2.5-3L turbocharged engine (VG/6G72/RB/1JZ/2JZ). Even my stock 1.8L CA18DET made 400+ for well over a year before being sold on.

2. 405bhp on 6 x 370cc injectors is perfectly fine with appropriate mapping.

 

Increase engine efficiency to decrease fuel consumption, although at the point where a VG is producing 450bhp, fuel consumption is a moot point... Low load scenarios: Fuel consumption will be no different until you start with high-lift cams that require a richer AFR at idle & cruise.

 

 

What does "on boost alone" mean?

 

If you're genuinely looking to hit 450bhp as cheaply as possible, you'd be surprised what can be accomplished. You don't NEED larger injectors, for a start. You definitely don't need forged pistons. I'd be surprised if there's one VG30DETT in this country right now that actually requires aftermarket con rods....

 

Most importantly, 450bhp is not at the expense of sufficient reliability with a road car. Obviously if you're spending 99% of the time at WOT on track, then it's big rad, big injectors, big turbos, forged pistons, aftermarket EMS with decent knock control & individual cylinder mapping.

 

For the average road car, however:

Fully uprated exhaust system (elbows, downpipe decats, cat back, manifolds if cheap enough & engine is out).

Dual intakes.

2.5" intercooler pipework from turbo outlet to throttle bodies, smooth bends & as short as possible. Think outside the box as far as IC placement is concerned.

Most efficient intercooler(s) you can find. To help reduce the strain on the turbos, you want minimal pressure loss. To make the power, you need the coldest charge possible.

Grade 8 spark plugs.

 

If BSFC isn't reduced sufficiently with the above mods (all engines are different), then an adjustable fuel pressure regulator will give a bit of leeway with fuel delivery (3.5bar base fuel pressure = 400cc equivalent injectors, plus the fuel pump can cope at 1.5bar over atmosphere).

 

You don't need to spend crazy money buying lots of parts to make power with the VG. What you do need to do is remove all the restrictions & compromises brought about by the factory installation/shoe-horning of Nissan's finest powerplant into the engine bay of a luxurious Grand Tourer. You don't hear RB26 owners talking about pistons & rods at a woeful 400bhp and RB #6 cyl ringlands are probably more susceptible to damage than VG #5 & 6 cyl ringlands.

 

If an engine throws a rod, it's due to either a mechanical defect, component failure, poor build or bad mapping (piston melts, little end enjoys new-found freedom and shoots for the stars). Any idea what caused the 30k miler to go?

 

Having said ALL this though, if you're actually going to the trouble of building/rebuilding an engine as opposed to just buying a second-hand one, you may as well build it with forged items to handle 600+ in the future, because all you need for 450bhp is a half-decent stock VG & bolt-ons.

 

its running on a blitz ecu chipped up with to much boost for stock engine and injectors and turbos (i believe about 1.5 bar), ive now turned all the gadgets off for the time being and thinking of fitting a standard ecu so that this replacement engine doesnt get damaged because it will be getting sold once the the rebuild is completed over the next month or so.

i am wanting the car 2knock out about 450 comfortably while not drinking to much juice, the car is now running at 405 on boost alone with standard injectors which i've being told is a big nono, the engine which has covered 30000 miles throw a rod outer lower end and is going to a mechanic to be rebuilt so i'm thinking i might aswell put a few added extras while its in bits. so out of experience could someone tell me what i'd possibility get in the £500 range in parts and also the £1000 range if i do decide to go all out for the 450bhp target

 

its up to you personally,but why not give it a freshen up,new bearings,stock or forged pistons your choice,i know what mine is,get the heads re furbed ie valves re cut into the seats and you have faith then should you choose to get it mapped.Maybe it can be mapped to a milliion horsepower whatever but on an engine 20 years old who would want to......its all ok until it goes wrong.Im not saying it will but flip a coin in the air and see how it lands.