One of our rental properties has undergone a complete renovation in order for us to get it ready for new tenants, part of this involved the fitting of a complete new kitchen.

 

Now I've employed my old man for the last 5 months as he was a builder in his hay day many moons ago, however recently I've had a bit of a ding dong with him regarding what he should and should not be getting involved with.....(ie. a bricky should touch bricks and not touch anything gas or electrics related!)

 

After I insisted categorically that he touch nothing at all gas related, the boiler/central heating/gas piping etc has all been sorted by a qualified gas safe registered fitter (all good and signed off) and we've had an electrician in to check and sign off the electrics...

 

 

The electrician spent the entire morning checking everything off throughout the property and was happy to sign it off with a few points highlighted such as original plug socket locations etc etc...all good so far

 

 

I've just found out tonight that my old man, after I specifically told him not to, has added wiring and sockets after it had been checked off by the electrician!

 

 

Question 1: As my father is not a qualified electrician and has no Mains Compliance qualification and doesn't know what a Minor Works Certificate is (the confused look on his face this evening confirmed this) I belive that he should not be touching the electrics.

I'd like to state that he is compitant and it was his re-wiring that the electrician signed off (ie. he replaced the old cable for new, re-ran it and re-terminated the sockets throughout the house) however I believe that his recent additions in the kitchen are wrong?

 

 

 

Question 2: Does this additional wiring/sockets in the kitchen now null and void the recent electricians inspection and do I need the electrician to come back out and check it again, even if the additional wiring/sockets are removed?

 

 

Question 3: The new kitchen features a built in oven with seperate hob and seperate extractor fan. Now I belive that the hob is rated to 32amp and as such should be wired to the original cooker cable (6mm) and run to a seperate cooker switch on the wall near the cooker and subsequently run to a 32amp fuse in the fuse box.

 

The oven is only 13amp and therefore cannot be run off the same 32amp switch as the hob, and must be seperate to it on a 13amp fused switch (2.5mm cable is more than sufficient for this).

 

The extractor is also 13amp and can be run to the same 13amp fused switch as the oven (ie. it doesn't require a seperate 13amp fused switch to that of the oven.....so I don't need to have two seperate 13amp fused switches side by side for the oven and extractor (one 13amp fused switch is enough for both appliances).

 

 

 

I could really do with a steer on this one because I really don't want to have unnecessary wiring and switches in a new property that may/may not be wired correctly and also as it's to let, I don't want to leave myself open to liable action due to a null and void certificate...

 

 

cheers

 

Pez

Edited October 28, 201213 yr by jap.slapper

 

 

One of our rental properties.......

 

Remember The fact that it is a rental open`s you up to enforcement action and culpable reliability in the event of injury or death, your landlord insurance will specify your responsibilites and liabilities, and your local council will often have their own take on this, and especially if comes under multipul occupation, that is a flipping nightmare.

 

 

We've had an electrician in to check and sign off the electrics.....

 

Ok thats good, you have complied and shifted any liability for electrical issue`s to the electrician.

 

Dad has added wiring and sockets after it had been checked off by the electrician!

 

No, no, no the previous certificate is now outdated by new minor works, not only is the new circuits untested and unregulated but by been connected to the rest of the electrical circuits in the house also deems them non compliant, even of the new minor works is done well and correct, its untested.

 

 

As my father is not a qualified electrician and has no Mains Compliance qualification and doesn't know what a Minor Works Certificate is I believe that his recent additions in the kitchen are wrong?

 

The regulation only requires that minor works are done by someone who is competant rather than qualified, how you quantify competent is another thing.

 

Non compliant for sure as untested, not necessarily wrong as your Dad sounds like he knows his stuff, it just needs testing to be compliant for you the landlords.

 

Does this additional wiring/sockets in the kitchen now null and void the recent electricians inspection and do I need the electrician to come back out and check it again

 

Yes

 

even if the additional wiring/sockets are removed?

 

Yes as removing circuits ( or working on any circuits ) constitutes minor works certificable

 

The new kitchen features a built in oven with seperate hob and seperate extractor fan. Now I belive that the hob is rated to 32amp and as such should be wired to the original cooker cable (6mm) and run to a seperate cooker switch on the wall near the cooker and subsequently run to a 32amp fuse in the fuse box.

 

The oven is only 13amp and therefore cannot be run off the same 32amp switch as the hob, and must be seperate to it on a 13amp fused switch (2.5mm cable is more than sufficient for this).

 

The extractor is also 13amp and can be run to the same 13amp fused switch as the oven (ie. it doesn't require a seperate 13amp fused switch to that of the oven.....so I don't need to have two seperate 13amp fused switches side by side for the oven and extractor (one 13amp fused switch is enough for both appliances).

 

The hob will be fine on the 6 mm cable, the extractor although may be rated as 13 amp will in reality be much less even as low5 to 10 amp, this along with the oven could be run off an addition lower fused circuit from the 6mm hob cable, and before you tot up the power usage it does not work like that.

 

A 32A supply is 7.36kW and normally this can be supplied with a 6mm sq cable. If you connect a greater load then it will in the end trip but with an oven and hob each element will all be switching on and off so likely the average load will not exceed 7.36kW so likely there will be no problem.

 

Using the accepted methodology http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/6.2.3.htm ) your two appliances are regarded as a load of 20.4A - well under 32.

 

Read more: http://www.diynot.com/forums/electrics/installing-oven-and-hob-onto-32amp-6mm2-radial.291666/#ixzz2AZm4O0wt

 

 

I could really do with a steer on this one because I really don't want to have unnecessary wiring and switches in a new property that may/may not be wired correctly and also as it's to let, I don't want to leave myself open to liable action due to a null and void certificate...

 

 

cheers

 

Pez

 

 

Hope that helps, one point that does make me MAD is electrical based small or minor work regulations effect normal households too, so if you fancy adding an extra socket into an existing circuit you need to jump through the particular hoops that make it safe apparently, why oh why if we are all so incompetant at this does large DIY outlets sell cable, sockets, and consumer units? cynical maybe but its a money maker, if an electrical circuit is compliant to the regulations of the day it was installed, how can it be that a few years later when fuse and cable sizes are re-assessed does that mean the previous regulations were incorrect? or are the new ones a way of keeping the electrical industry busy, there has been a plethora of individials and companies attending crappy 2 week courses to make them pact testing engineers and small work testers, never in a million years are they electricians but regulators, ok rant over

(Previously time served electrician)

 

Jeff TT

Edited October 28, 201213 yr by JeffTT

No1, if the sparky came in and was happy enough with your old man's work to sign it off it should be fine, I wouldn't put my name to anything unless I was 100% happy with it because if there is a problem down the line its the sparks neck on the line not yours or your dad's.

 

No2, if you remove the sockets and switches that your old man's put then yes it would need to be re tested as even though your removing wires and switches your disturbing the electrics that have been signed off and tested. Plus its all to easy to disturb other wires/earth's and switches when you're pulling out old wiring

 

No3, not really sure what your asking here, I would run the 2 appliances to 2 separate 13amp fuses switches as firstly if they are both rested to 13amps then putting them both into 1 spur could overload it easily and secondly if there is a problem with the extractor causing the spur to trip then you would loose your oven and visa-versa thirdly 13amps seems small for an electric oven are you sure this is correct or is it a gas oven with electric hob?

 

Hope this helps

Thanks guy's that's pretty much what I suspected, and I realise that the whole competancy thing is a bit of a grey area. The oven is definately 13amp mate

Most built in Work under/top hob/ovens are now 13amp .. Each

Learn something new every day, back when I did my books ovens were usually around 32amp and some as high as 60!!!

i think if the Oven was like double sized or Free standing & some thing nice then yeah needs its own dedicated Run on 30amp fuse/switch

This one is an average sized Wickes special, I think the old cooker that we removed was a free standing one and that was on 6mm cable to a 32amp fuse in the box

the wicks ones are meant just to be plugged in wall on 13amp

but does need a Fused switch spur above counter for both hob/oven

and like above if it doesn't .. does need to be done by a sparky or tested and paper work

due to you renting the house

 

if it was your own kinda different

Currently the hob has a cooker switch above the worktop on a 32amp fuse

 

the oven/extractor was on a single 13amp fused switch at the time that the electrician signed it off, but for some reason my old man decide off his own back despite me telling him not to, to hack away at the wall and add another 13amp fused switch (see pic) in order that the oven and extractor have their own switches.

In doing so (1. It looks shit) 2. a couple of the double plug sockets along the work top now don't work and 3. The electricians check is now null and void and it's going to cost me another £140 odd to get him to re-check it/sort it.

 

 

 

Yeah if it was after the inspection it needs re doing especially if other sockets now don't work

The current up to date regulations state that any kitchen sockets/cookers/washers etc, should be on its own ring main & RCD breaker in the consumer unit. I also have rental properties in London for the past 5 years, I've been a Qualified Electrician (16th edition) got out of the game years ago due to to many regulations, I would not touch electrics on rental properties due to much the legal stuff, better off paying someone to come in and do the work. If anything happens to the tenant by the way of electrification then you have the necessary paperwork to cover yourself. These EARTH LEAKAGE TESTS have to be done every 12 months.

shame you are so far away could of helped you out

can't spur a socket of a decicated cooker circuit it's a no no,and you have a switched socket on the cooker outlet which means this circuit has to be on a rcd!!! if the cooker outlet didn't have a socket on it it could stay on mcb

The hob is on a seperate 32amp RCD labelled 'cooker' in the fuse box

 

the oven is on a seperate 16amp RCD via a fused switch, from what I can see the oven extractor fan is spurred off the oven fused switch to a seperate fused switch (both appliances are obviously 13amp), the sparky signed off when the extractor and oven were both wired into the same fused switch. This has since been changed