1. If the proposed club was accepted by insurers to keep insurance down, everyone would join !

 

2. How about designing/making a rear spoiler which can flip up or down, like pop-up headlights - maybe you could use the p u headlight motors from a 200SX to do it.

 

3. Can a 300ZX Z32 be modified so that the engine can run at higher revs than ~7,000 - like Honda engines and Ferrari's etc. do ?

 

4. IS there any way to modify your engine so that you can switch between economy and sports/performance mode ?

 

5. If you lighten the flywheel only on the outsdie, does that make all the good things about this mod far greater than the downsides ? What about making the inside thinner/lighter only ?

 

 

1. Yes people whould join it. But I have found out that some places are a lot better for some things than others. Some companies are better price for one person's situation but at the expence of being worse for anothers. I.e Tesco where £100 cheaper than any one else in my first years insurance. This year they where nearly £200 dearer than the cheapest I got.

 

2. Naaaa, not for me.

 

3. Chipping gets rid of the rev limiter. To get higher revs you need good cooling and a very balanced and strong engine. AY3388 has a friend whos Lancia Delta Evo that revs up to 13,000. Hondas are V-Tech which completely changes the timeing of the engine at 6000rpm which allows it go to 7000-8000 rpm no problem. Ferrari are very well balanced engines and a work of art , you cant really compaire the 2.

So V-Tech is out of the question. Balanced engine, you are talking £20,000 to £30,000 worth of engine internals to be able to do it.

 

4.Some big arsed american V6 or V8 engines change to the timeing so it works like a 4 cylinder engine while cruiseing. Apperantly cant feel the engine changeing and if you floor it, it goes back to working on all cylinders straight away. This may be possible, but I know nothing about it, whether its 100% ECU or the mechnics of the engine changes. All I do know that when the car is firing on 5 its rough as fook.

You could design a ECU which allows you to change the map while driving to go more economical settings. But whos gonna make it?

 

5. I have no idea what you are on about

 

 

There's my answers..

 

Stuart

1. Z Club does an insurance deal. Come to that, so does the MGOC and loads of others. Not everyone joins. Why should we be different?

 

2. The VW Corrado had one. It only worked aerodynamically around 75 - 80 mph or more. So they changed the trigger speed on UK Corrados to make the spoiler activate at (IIRC) 55mph just to make it look good at UK legal speeds. Sad gits (both VW and owners).

 

3. Of course. Persuade some dumb git to remove the rev limit on a chip and "bang". Probably only run at more than safe speed the once, though...

 

4. Yes. At the end of your driver's side ambulatory fitment, there is a lever joint fully under the driver control. Depress it to the limit to engage sport mode and to engage economy mode, don't exert so much pressure.

 

5. Why?

 

 

Oooo. Gio Bitchy!

very blunt, calling people sad gits, even a slightly agressive tone to the post...................

 

OK - what have you done with Gio you imposter!!!

 

------------------

I feel the need, the need for speed!

 

1.yes

2.not up my street ,but anythings possible

3.yes,and it's not quite as expensive as you think,but why make an inherently torquey engine scream like some piddly little honda engine???and no bottom end grunt,you need to put in stonger valve springs,fully counterbalance the bottom end,alter the cams,poss fit better pistons,something like that would take you up to around 8500-9000rpm,given you don't induce to much block flex.at which point you would have to make a girdle to hold the main caps linear.

4.yes,but the systems i've seen only really limit the amount of throttle travel.

5.taking metal(lightning) of the flywheel always makes a difference,no matter where you take it from,so that is why nissan opted for that weight,a good comprimise between performance and driverablity.

 

------------------

1. For my Classic insurance I HAD to join the Z club. I get little else from that other than a monthly mag. Thought many others had done the same - maybe I was wrong. But I am not keen on joining 2 clubs or changing from one to another which DOESNT gain me good insurance.

 

2. Thought a flip-up spoiler would be cool and also USEFUL, as downforce at low speeds is not useful, so when dwon you have no added gain. Best of both worlds - but it would obviously require a lot of time and effort and cost. Done badly, it would be and look shyte.

 

3. Guess you need to upgrade the internals, and improve engine systems to cope. Has anyone here done it ?

 

4. Gio -what are you on about ?

 

5. Mass from outside of flywheel makes it spin slower than that taken from the middle. This is logical. Becuase it travels further on the outside than the inside. Someone posted about lightened flywheel and someone said there are pors and cons. If oyu lighten from the outside only, I believe you have the same benefits but reduced negative aspects. Also, you have reduced mass - always a good thing, especially from the front end.

Originally posted by SRRAE:

Oooo. Gio Bitchy!

 

I apologise. To everyone. At least, everyone on this forum, anyrate. I blame the price of London Pride round these parts.

 

(actually, I think I only called VW and VW owners sad gits not anyone here but I apologise anyway)

 

I am sometimes taken a little surprised when people want to apply fixes to a car which is (for me) just about perfect. Sort of if someone thought the Mona Lisa could do with a bit of a touch up (which is probably why she is smiling ).

 

Nico and others used to counsel against any but the most basic of mods unless you had either a degree in engineering or pots of money or preferably both. Having neither, I agree. I would have thought that if people wanted to get to grips with modding and tuning and stuff, the Zed is not the ideal car to use.

 

I used to have fun with my Midget (but don't tell the wife). Millions enjoy effing with Fords. I even used to get bits and pieces from Motobuild racing for my MG Turbo.

 

But having some idea of the engineering complexity of any modern car (let alone the technical tour de force of my beloved Z), the thought of doing anything strange to such a beautiful and rare car without a seriously experienced company / person in my corner just worries me.

 

As for my convoluted point 4, to put it another way, in the bike racing world, we used to say "the throttle works both ways".

 

Sorry.

 

Again.

 

Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Yes, you've skipped your daily meditation haven't you Gio ! Very naughty !!

 

I largely agree with your attitude

- the amount of technology in Zeds means any DIY mods are liekly to be detrimental in some respect. Before I do anything to my stock Z, I try and consider every angle, and would never alter anything without knowing for certain that I was improving the car. Even aftermarket bodykits I worry affect the drag coefficient and aerodynamics. Even bonnet vents I worry about. I would be happy to remove the headlight washers tho', as their removal can only help aerodynamics.

I would never rush into any mod. I AM considering an ab-flug spoiler though, as they are designed for pure functionality and can only make the car safer by increasing downforce, although drag will increase slightly.

 

Don't assume that if I ask a question about something it necessarily means I want to do it or would consider doing it. People on here generally tend to assume that. I ask questions to increase my understanding. I have an active mind.

 

CheerZ,

Dave.

Heheh, SRRAE, there you are with your half stories sgain! - the engine CAN run up to that. But the ECU only lets it run to 8 - 8.5 ish for track use. Its cos its a strong engine that its 'able' to run at high revs and just cos the engine *can* rev to that doesnt mean the peak power is in the upper echelons of the 'rev range', as I said i think 8500 is the highest itll *usefully* run to, before a gear change would make things better.

I recall the engine only failed at approx 15000 rpm or something like that. When data was recalled after a bodged gearchange on a rally (by previous owner hehe) it showed the rpm then a big drop to 0 rpm rather quickly.

Hehehe.

Anyways, as someone said, getting a strong engine will 'allow' you to increase the rev limit usefully. The problem with increasing the rev limit, is someone else has to have done the background research on the useful limits (i.e. failed engines) otherwise youll have to fail it to know when to stop upping the limit.

 

Dave -

one problem with the flip up spoiler is that itd weigh more, not being antagonistic, but the mechanicals of that spoiler would increase weight considerably.

The stonger engine componenets etc would allow you to increase the rev limit (see above )

Dave you say its purly for function, but I know for a fact that the spoilers that people have on thier cars are not just for looks. Yes even the stock small spoiler does something.

That spoiler will do a job and very well and personaly I think that the angle of that wing is a little OTT. You could run less than that and still get lots of downforce. I have read people on TT.net saying they car feel the differnce, even to the extent that thier 0-60 went up from anything between 0.2 to 0.5 of a second.

 

I know you are looking at things to make it safer and its good that are looking at every aspect. But you are contridicting yourself. Make the car lighter then add another heavier wing on the back and even add a heavy motor to move it.

 

As for removing the front washers? I doubt that will make a difference to the aerodynamics to the extent that it will make it faster and safer and I think that the 100 Japanese enginers who have the best technology to design and test the cars would have thought about the safty of the car and the down force. Really people add new spoilers onto the back because they like the look of them, they race and need the extra downforce, but I think its mostly because they like the look of them.

Besides the none of the new Ferraris excluding the F50 have wings.

 

Stuart

Originally posted by SRRAE:

I have read people on TT.net saying they car feel the differnce, even to the extent that thier 0-60 went up from anything between 0.2 to 0.5 of a second.

 

Sounds a bit odd to me - are they really saying that fiddling with their angle of attack on the spoiler makes a noticeable difference under 60mph? Somehow, I doubt it.

 

Why can you never find an aerodynamicist when you want one?

Oh, look - here's a couple!

http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/aero/tech_aero.htm#Drag%20and%20Lift

http://www.strictlybmw.com/newsletter/driving/aerodynamics.htm

Thanks for the excellent articles. I thought of a good solution for not being able to make front skirts on road cars very close to the ground - make them of a flexible materail which will simply move/bend when it touches the road !!

 

Also- isn't someone here designing a ground effect system for their Z. I'm surprised at the low Cd's of some of those cars compared to a Zeds 0.31/0.32, but I guess the Z needs more downforce and air into the engine/ intercoolers ?

 

SRRAE - Porsche didn't think the extra weight of an adjustable spoiler was worthless ! Gio's articles correct a few of your points. As for the washer 'nipples', they must cause undesirable turbulence. Not a lot, granted, but as they are pretty much useless, reckon they should be taken off.

For flexible skirts, see http://www.hover.globalinternet.co.uk/

 

Seriously though, aerodynamics need very precise shapes to work correctly so flexible skirts are probably not the way to go. Plus, at low speeds (i.e. legal ones) the limiting factor for our cars is probably rolling resistance not aerodynamic drag. And if you drag your skirts, your resistance goes up (oo-er).

 

Unseriously, while researching some of the earlier stuff, I came across a site where they were discussing making spoilers out of piezo-electric material. This changes shape if you bung a p.d. across it so covering it with shaped electrodes (a la LCD displays) should, in theory, give you a spoiler which changed shape in 3D depending on the program of the control unit.

 

Someone even suggested covering the entire car with piezo-electric material so - given enough processing power - you could continually modify the shape of the car to optimise aerodynamic efficiency for the speed you're at.

 

Porsche used an adjustable spoiler on the toy 911s, all the PROPER 911 have a fixed wing/spoiler setup

hehe

I think though on your quest for weight savings, you'd be better off with a non mechanical spoiler that can be hand adjusted depending on what you want to use the car for.

Porsche went for 30 years with out having a wing that came up. Cos its called a GIMIK! Something that the yuppie boys have something to show thier friends.

Ferrari's dont have a wing that comes up, neither do Noble, Supra, GTO, 350Z, 300ZX, NSX, Vantage, Honda S2000, Skyline, MR-2 Turbo, I could go on but I know Craig wants to keep the bandwidth down.

The reason they dont have retractable spoilers becuase there is no need for one.

 

I didnt say that the light washers wouldnt cause any turbulance. I said the it would hardly make a difference. So little infact you would never feel the difference. They may make a little whistling at high speed, but I have never heard it.

 

But where do you stop? Why not take the door handles off your doors they are heavy and not aerodynamic, make sure the aerial isnt up bet the mass of the arial is larger than the light washer nipples, put the window widers behind a shield when down actually a good idea, but unless they went into the engine bay would look stupid, get rid of the wing mirrors or retact them when driving at speed .

 

Personally I think that taking the washers off would be a waste of time if you want it for aerodynamics.

(American feel good part now)

If you want it to make it look better, go for it. As for anything. If you want a retractable wing, you go for it, its your car and you have to be happy with it. If every one listened to every one else on the looks of cars we would never get any where.

 

As for the Cd's of the ZX. I dont think the half the nose being open allowing air into the coolers/radiator helps. It makes the front of the car act like a parachute.

Now getting some tests on a ZX with a Strosek, ( I think it is, not too up on kit names, the one on Johnny's car below) nose and see if that makes any difference would be very interesting.

 

Stuart

 

 

p.s. This is nothing against you Nelson, just saying what i think.

 

 

No worries Stuart. I wasn't annoyed with nething you said. You're probably right about the rear spoiler. I don't think I would ever construct a motorised rear spoiler, but in theory, it would be useful. The reason it's rarely ever done is probably dwon to cost and the fact it would be confusing to most drivers. Note that the FIA banned adjustable spoilers among other things, becasue it was used under race conditions to positive effect. As in the articles Gio cited, spoilers are useful under some conditions, and detrimental to others. Perhaps ay is right and a manually adjustable one is a good compromise.

 

Interestingly the article also says that low spoilers are mainly for show and won't provide much functional down force. I find this surprising as Nissan thought it worthwhile to put a low spoiler on the TT version. Was it just really coZmetic ?

Originally posted by SRRAE:

...put the window widers behind a shield when down actually a good idea...

 

Erm, the wipers do hide behind the rear lip of the bonnet anyway. They go into a 'parked' position when off - have a look for yourself next time. Watch the lowest point they go to when they are wiping. Then turn them off and watch as they 'park' themselves lower down, hiding behind the back lip of the bonnet...

 

CheerZ,

 

Andy

I believe that if you were to have an adjustable spoiler for function rather than looks, then you would actually extend the spoiler at low speed and retract it at speed.

 

Take a window seat the next time you go in a plane and check the rear of the wings. A sticky up bit of a wing (or down in the case of an aircraft) does increase the downforce (or lift) but at a big premium of drag. As speed increases, the actual aerofoil shape gives a pressure differential on the two sides of the wings which has a much greater effect than sticky up bits.

 

Dave

Originally posted by Nelson MainFella:

Thanks for the excellent articles. I thought of a good solution for not being able to make front skirts on road cars very close to the ground - make them of a flexible materail which will simply move/bend when it touches the road !!

 

Also- isn't someone here designing a ground effect system for their Z. I'm surprised at the low Cd's of some of those cars compared to a Zeds 0.31/0.32, but I guess the Z needs more downforce and air into the engine/ intercoolers ?

 

SRRAE - Porsche didn't think the extra weight of an adjustable spoiler was worthless ! Gio's articles correct a few of your points. As for the washer 'nipples', they must cause undesirable turbulence. Not a lot, granted, but as they are pretty much useless, reckon they should be taken off.

 

well if you consider its a 13 year old design, then the cd is very efficient as the lowest of that time was around 30 i think.

At the end of the day if you dont have a wind tunnel to test dont make aero mods period.

 

Originally posted by 300z:

well if you consider its a 13 year old design, then the cd is very efficient as the lowest of that time was around 30 i think.

 

Yes, Warren. The only quote I can find straight away is from 300ZX Enthusiasts's Companion.

----------------------------------------

Toshio Yamashita "We set a Cd target but kept the emphasis on styling. Cars with a good Cd don't necessarily look good." They were happy to achieve a Cd of 0.31 for the NA and to have a lift coefficient close to zero, front and rear. It became clear, however, that the faster Turbo model would need a deeper front apron and a tail spoiler, even if these increased drag.

---------------------

 

I just tried to find the Cd figure for either the Audi TT or the 350Z but both manufacturers' websites are the usual bloated overlarge java w*nk designed by some complete a*seholes with a cocaine habit and far too much money and far too much bandwidth so I got bored fighting through the marketing b*llocks. Sorry

 

Cheers - Gio