Will you be voting?

The BNP are a bunch racists thugs who have tried over a number of years to build up credibility. Under their rule you can wave goodbye to democracy!!!

Geoff.

There's lot's issues being raised here, but i'll put in my 50 cents worth:

 

Firstly, Asylum seekers: Why are we afraid of them? cause they'lll take our jobs? Well unemployment is the lowest is been for ages and there are so many jobs out there that we're not willing to do.

 

...Are we afraid they'll use up our resources? ... well what do you think we're doing when we turn the ignition key? where does all that petrol come from? Don't get me wrong, there has to be control, otherwise there will be chaos, but they are just people who want a better life for themselves and their families? Wouldn't you want the same? Also there is a clear need for workers, especially in the Health industry, did you know that about a quarter of doctors and half of all nurses are not UK-born?

 

As for Saudi's hating western people, just imagine if the USA took over the British government, corrupted it, and exploited it to rob it's natural resources and if you didn't like it, they'd find an excuse to bomb you.. then i think then you might have a chip on your shoulder as well.

 

As for muslim's wanting to take over the UK, i'm pretty sure that they're not supposed to by islamic law, they should adhere to the law of the land, if they don't want to, then by all means they should leave, but there will always be those radicals that have their own extreme views, just like any society. Conversely , if you go to a country with Islamic laws, then you should abide by them or leave.

 

Culture: it's a melting pot. English culture is a mix of anglo-saxon, roman, christian, pagan, latin and god knows how many other things. There are also many things that got borrowed from the middle/far east (tea anyone?). British culture is not being threatened, if anything it's learning and growing.

 

As for the BNP, I still recall all the stories of them beating up Black/Asian people and smashing their businesses. ...And didn't their Party political message get banned from channel Five because they were interviewing a woman who's daughter got raped by Asians, i mean how dumb do they think we are? do they seriously expect us to forget the tens of thousands of rapes commited by white people in the same year?

 

Anyway, basically my point is this, BNP are rascist no matter how they try and gloss it... i don't want to sound like a hippy or nothing, but it seems to me it's more important then ever to show some common sense and compassion towards other people, all you have to do is use your brain.

 

As for Saudi's hating western people, just imagine if the USA took over the British government, corrupted it, and exploited it to rob it's natural resources and if you didn't like it, they'd find an excuse to bomb you.. then i think then you might have a chip on your shoulder as well.

 

--------> where the fook did this cum from ?! do u mean Iraq ? A CORRUPT/EVIL government, much worse than ours. We make Saudi rich from oil revenue - hardly exploitation.

 

British culture is not being threatened, if anything it's learning and growing.

 

----------> how's that then ? suicide bombing/oppression of women/genocide/corruption/murder/genital mutilation - yeah the Middle East can teach us lot !!:rofl: AFAIK the middle east is a nightmare unless u r a rich Arab Sheikh. the last place on earth I'd want to live..

 

 

see comments above

well this government are: lying, deceiving, stupid, greedy little toe-rags, so it wont be labour for me then. i see no-one has voted green party yet!!! - wonder why (something to do with car-hating or something...)

news this morning is that lib dems have done really well in the local council election

All results here as they come in...

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/vote2004/locals/flash_map/html/local_intro.stm

 

Big news round these parts is Trafford has gone Tory...

 

Must be all the prawn-eating fools in Stretford!

 

Hey maybe that's where NigelBoyd has gone - he's been on the stump for the last month. :rofl:

news this morning is that lib dems have done really well in the local council election

Depends on your definition of really well.

 

So far they've lost control of 3 councils and gained control of only 1. They must be absolutely delighted! ;)

Depends on your definition of really well.

 

So far they've lost control of 3 councils and gained control of only 1. They must be absolutely delighted! ;)

 

LOL

 

But that does hide NOCs where they have a bigger share than previously - like mine in Bolton...

Nelson,

 

just to clarify, what I meant was the biggest Oil-producing coutries are in the USA's pockets, such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE etc. and now Iraq as well. The one's that they do not control are the 'enemy'.

 

Imagine a world where the USA did not try and control the middle east, and did not support (or ignore) every illegal Israeli action, then there would be no Ismalic terrorists, and people would go back to worrying about Russians and Aliens/Comets from outer space.

 

As for the middle east cultures, people have a right to live how they want in their own countries, and all those points u raised have got counter-arguments.

 

suicide bombing - Suicide is illegal in Islam as well I believe, also you could argue that if you had an army next door with littetaly state-of-the-art military techology killing your family, would you give up your life to try and stop them?

 

"oppression of women" - I've heard that the right's given to women by Islam hundreds of years ago, were WAY ahead of any western culture, e.g. A wife owns all of her possesion AND here husband's, not vice-versa. talk to Middle-east women and see what THEY think.

 

"genocide" - nearly all races and religions are guilty of this, just nature humanity methinks.

 

"corruption" - Again this is everywhere, especailly the poorer countires as they are more desperate.

 

"murder" - ? do you mean capital punishement like the USA or Crime?

 

"genital mutilation" - if you're talking about Jewish/Islamiic Male Circumcision? some argue that this is hygenic. If you're talking about Female Circumcision, then I agree this is barbaric, and should be phased out (still common in India I beleive).

 

Aslo what about the things that we got from the east? like most foods and spices, and Maths / Physics / Astology, there's loadsa stuff, check out some history sites.

 

Also, I stick by my comment that people should abide by the laws of the land or leave.

 

Good hews that the BNP are not doing that well in the elections anyway...

sonix -fair does for remaining calm and arguing constructively/politely

 

it is complex - the USA are guilty of many bad things too

 

but - don't you think most people in the middle east wudn't rather live in Britain ? The King of Saudi actually supports the jihad - seeing all westerners as infidels. Surely this is not just another country with different culture etc. We don't openly say they are all evil do we ? They encourage the poor masses to hate foreigners while allowing them into their country to do deals and take their money. They are far more corrupt than our governements in the West by any standards. Depite being so rich, they oppress the masses, while being so religiously high-minded, they do what they like behind closed doors.

Sonix did you actually read what I wrote? You just keep playing the racism 'card' and it isn't cutting it. Generalism and vagueness do not make a good arguement.

 

1. Most people have nothing against genuine asylum seekers. (definition of asylum seeker being that they are in danger of being persecuted/murdered in their homeland)

 

2. Illegal economic migrants are flooding the country.

 

3. This country already has a housing shortage and we are housing more & more so called 'asylum seekers'. Don't you regard housing as a resource? Do you not wonder why firemen on £25k a year cannot get a mortgage? Add it up.

 

4. Yes I am aware of the NHS shortages. My sister is a nurse. I agree that where needed we should allow economic migrants. Just as every other country in world does. Out of the 250,000 'asylum seekers' that come to this country a year (official figures, gawd knows what the real figures are like!) what percentage do you reckon are Doctors and Nurses? And what percentage of this percentage to you think is trained to UK standards?

 

5. I want a better life for my children, hence I am going to LEGALLY immigrate to Canada in a couple of years.

 

6. Since when have the US taken over Saudi? they have some military bases there residual from the first gulf war by invitation of the Saudi government? is this what you mean? (who coincidentally are pulling their bases from Saudi) The UK still has US bases here from WWII ! If anything the locals encourage them to stay due to the local economies collapsing if they left! Just as the UK has bases in Cyprus, Germany & Belize etc etc.

 

7. Muslims should live in the UK and adhere to our laws/education/lifestyle. Are you genuinely trying to claim that this is the case?? :rofl: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3789303.stm

 

8. Tea anyone? perfect example. Chinese people migrate to the UK, and they integrate respectfully, whilst still retaining their own Identity and have been doing so for decades. I don't see any Chinese people bombing people left right and centre, I don't see any of them preaching hatred day in day out. Demanding that schools be taught in Mandarin/Cantonese etc etc. I also believe that if they did they would be categorically run out, or disowned by their peers.

 

9. Culture. Where-ever the influences came from, we are still European and as I stated have a very different mentality than say people from africa where due to a high mortality rate, culturaly there is a low value on life. Just people from the Arabian areas differ greatly from people in India as do they from Chinese. I would place most Hindi/Punjabis in the category as Chinese when it comes to how well they integrate into the UK.

 

10. 'As for the BNP...' Conversely are you saying there are no asian gangs beating up whites in Bradford/manchester blah blah blah? two wrongs don't make a right. Also you will find that traditionally these attacks were by the national front and not BNP. The voice of the BNP is no longer 'blacks out' just as the voice of Sinn Fein is no longer 'kill all brits'. What are you saying? that BNP should be denied the democratic process? Not very democratic is it....

 

Finally I'd like to point out that in my life in Glasgow I worked for several muslim owned companies and I found a majority of these people to be the biggest racist bigots I have ever came across in my life. Coming from Glasgow I know what a bigot is, not just what you might read in the daily mirror.

 

Talking about corruption, is anyone surprised at the middle east style, people visiting other peoples door and taking their postal votes off them by intimidation?

 

:rolleyes:

 

edit - Sorry if some of that sounded too anti-muslim, it wasn't meant to. I also know many muslim people/friends who integrated well, and have 2nd generation children. The difference is these people that I know regard themselves in this order. British, muslim of Pakistani Descent. And do not follow others blindly.

Goit, To reply to your points:

 

1. I hope people bear this in mind, it seems to get lost in the media quite often.

 

2. This may be true, and if it is, then of course it should be legislated and controlled, but as I said before, end of the day, these are people (like everyone else) who want a better life and I am sure are prepared to work hard for it; this is again easily forgotten as they tend to be spoken of as some sort of social parasites.

 

3. The housing shortage / explosion in price has effected us all, but I doubt the country is physically running out of space.

 

4. The Health industry is an exmaple i used, other industrys could be labour-based jobs. But if there are intelligent, professoinal, useful people that want to come over and contribute to the society, then we should train them and encourage them, but to keep thing's fair, surely we should extend the same courtesy to their friends and family?

 

5. Good, luck, it is a beautiful multi-cultural and tolerant country, i know some people who are considering moving there.

 

6. Most arab's feel the USA has too much political and military influence, the facts will probably differ with every person you ask, but the main point is, this is the main reason (along with Israel) why Islamic terrorism started. Look up the origins of Al-Qeada for details.

 

7. Like is said, people should live by the law of the country, but considering there are about 2 million muslims in the country, they should be represented by the law as well.

 

8 & 9. This point is largely about integration. I admit that some cultures will obviously integrate more easily then others, but that doesn't mean we can't live side by side. Didn't muslims/christians/jews live side by side in hundreds of years of peace in the middle east? Also, muslims were'nt considered that bad even in this country before the tragedy of 9/11, and there didn't seem to be a problem living side by side.

 

Also the Chinese have suffered just as much rascism as anyone else (i know for a fact that this still goes on as i've seen it a few times, and have been tols by Chinese friends). But, they have kept their language and culture (even though they are a very small percent of the population), and that's pretty much what muslims want to do (but this may mean changing some legislation).

 

10. The BNP should definately not be denied any democratic rights. All i'm saying is that the BNP has a very violent rascist history (i've seen some with my own eyes), and in MY opinion the poeple responsible are still members.

 

If they start preeching multi-culturalism and this is reflected in their policies, and the started getting members of different cultures etc. then i would have no problem with them. But they can't do that because they'd lose their white rascist supporters (after all they need to be represented as well).

 

If the BNP were openly rascist, and somehow won a General election, then I would not want to live in a right-wing country and i would be happy move to another country (like Canada). But can you imagine if every non-white felt like that and took their money, businesses and skills with them, where would that leave the UK?

 

Basically, I believe in free speech, and don't like hypocrisy. Also there are b*stards in every culture and creed, we shouldn't judge everyone by them.

Can this thread go in the joke forum now?

 

http://www.ryano.net/iraq/?1344137

Goit, To reply to your points:

 

1. I hope people bear this in mind, it seems to get lost in the media quite often.

 

2. This may be true, and if it is, then of course it should be legislated and controlled, but as I said before, end of the day, these are people (like everyone else) who want a better life and I am sure are prepared to work hard for it; this is again easily forgotten as they tend to be spoken of as some sort of social parasites.

 

----> I totally understand this, but this government has made a mockery of trying to control it. these people have to be cared for medically too, and that is a massive drain on an increasingly failing NHS system. My sisters father in-law is dying because of NHS delays, he has cancer of the oesphagus, which has now spread to his lymphatic system, which could have been caught if he didn't have to wait 6 months for tests, he will now die within the year.

 

3. The housing shortage / explosion in price has effected us all, but I doubt the country is physically running out of space.

 

----> 250,000 illegal immigrants a year, and 50,000 houses a year being built. supply & demand, there is plenty of 'space' but try and get permission to build on it, different matter. Also do you suppose these people are buying houses? or can afford to pay £500 a month rent minumum? Who do you suppose is paying for all this too? This is the reason why a plumber gets three times the salary of a Senior nuclear scientist! Read the job Ad's in the back of new scientist. lol 10 years doing a professorship to get less than £20k a year! he'd have been better off learning urdu and and how to weld some copper together

 

4. The Health industry is an exmaple i used, other industrys could be labour-based jobs. But if there are intelligent, professoinal, useful people that want to come over and contribute to the society, then we should train them and encourage them, but to keep thing's fair, surely we should extend the same courtesy to their friends and family?

 

----> why should we extend the same courtesy to their friends & family? what does this contribute when there is a skills shortage. I have immediate family in Toronto, but this in no way gives me the right to abitrarily move over there, nor do I feel the right. I have to work hard & save money & gain more qualifications to expedite my move.

 

5. Good, luck, it is a beautiful multi-cultural and tolerant country, i know some people who are considering moving there.

 

----> thnx :)

 

6. Most arab's feel the USA has too much political and military influence, the facts will probably differ with every person you ask, but the main point is, this is the main reason (along with Israel) why Islamic terrorism started. Look up the origins of Al-Qeada for details.

 

----> Anyone that purchases as much resource (oil in this case) from another country ALWAYS has political influence. If you have ever had a business and dealt with customers you would realise this. I know exactly what the origins of Al-Qaeda are. What no-one ever mentions tho' is that Al-Qaeda are as RACIST an organisation as the KKK, just look at recent events, murders in Saudi, purely because they want all westerners out of the 'Holy Land'. If thats not racism I dont know what is.

 

7. Like is said, people should live by the law of the country, but considering there are about 2 million muslims in the country, they should be represented by the law as well.

 

----> 2 million & growing. No they shouldn't be represented by different laws/amendments. they should be represented by british law/education. What you just said totally contradicts itself. This is after all where they chose to move to/live. If they wanted muslim law/education then they should have stayed where they were or provide education for themselves whilst obeying british law and attending state education also and adhering to UK school dress code, just as I had to adhere to School dress code and sing the Greek national anthem along with everyone else when I lived in Greece as a youth. This attitude is what I object to

 

8 & 9. This point is largely about integration. I admit that some cultures will obviously integrate more easily then others, but that doesn't mean we can't live side by side. Didn't muslims/christians/jews live side by side in hundreds of years of peace in the middle east? Also, muslims were'nt considered that bad even in this country before the tragedy of 9/11, and there didn't seem to be a problem living side by side.

 

Also the Chinese have suffered just as much rascism as anyone else (i know for a fact that this still goes on as i've seen it a few times, and have been tols by Chinese friends). But, they have kept their language and culture (even though they are a very small percent of the population), and that's pretty much what muslims want to do (but this may mean changing some legislation).

 

---> I never denied that racism doesn't exist and people haven't felt the effects of it and that it is disgusting. I have been the subject of racist abuse when I worked for Pakistanis in Glasgow. All I am saying it is no where near as bad in the UK as people try to make out. And people use it as an excuse. How about the policewoman in London who got £500,000 of my bloody tax (and yours) because a colleague bought her white face paint as a joke. & I wouldn't call 500,000 chinese a small percent (more than a quarter of the Muslim population, which come from multiple countries)

 

10. The BNP should definately not be denied any democratic rights. All i'm saying is that the BNP has a very violent rascist history (i've seen some with my own eyes), and in MY opinion the poeple responsible are still members.

 

If they start preeching multi-culturalism and this is reflected in their policies, and the started getting members of different cultures etc. then i would have no problem with them. But they can't do that because they'd lose their white rascist supporters (after all they need to be represented as well).

 

If the BNP were openly rascist, and somehow won a General election, then I would not want to live in a right-wing country and i would be happy move to another country (like Canada). But can you imagine if every non-white felt like that and took their money, businesses and skills with them, where would that leave the UK?

 

----> I would not be happy about that either, but you have to agree that a majority of illegal immigrants are non-skilled workers, or they would have came through proper channels. I don't know how many times I have to say it, some of my best friends have been chinese, black, indian, pakistani I am not racist and I do not want the people who work hard/families worked hard to leave this country, they provide a vital part of the countrys workforce/community. I need to add that my attitude was the exact same well before 9/11

 

Basically, I believe in free speech, and don't like hypocrisy. Also there are b*stards in every culture and creed, we shouldn't judge everyone by them.

 

---->Agreed, but what really gets my goat is things like the CRE refusal to condemn Robert Mugabe, the black policemans organisation etc etc, if anything involves white on black disagreement it is immediately racist, that pi55es me off.

 

 

my 2p (again!)

Yeah and I see all rag-heads as bleating on about how they hate the west and yet they embrace all that is west when it comes to a Sony Video or DVD player...Toyota Land Cruiser or selling western tourists Thomsan Original copied tapes or selling tourists copies of photos taken by the Yanks of their own with heads missing etc.

 

Those MO FO's need to be nuked!

On a lighter note, eventually racism WILL cease. Given time, there will be no pure race as such. However, there will always be exceptions. But by human nature, we'll probably find something else to prejudice- stupidity I hope.

 

For example, I am of far eastern origin but I have no intention of bearing children with those of my race. In this I am some what racist in a strange way. I just don't find females of my race attractive. They're like sisters to me and seems rather incestuous. Strange I know but there you go. All my siblings feel the same way and most of my oriental friends too.

 

I was not born in this country but I have embraced the british culture and language...and the moaning and conservatism too, LOL.

 

But then I choose NOT to be defined by the colour of my skin but rather the things I say, do and the way I live my life.

 

Life's too short to be narrow minded.

Hi Goit,

 

I won't got into too much detail into your replies, but generally it seems to reflect your personal opinions and examples of failure of systems (e.g. the face-paint incident). I think we both seem to agree that any form of rascism is bad (be it on whites/blacks/ muslims and non-muslims).

 

However, I would still disagree on voting BNP as a 'protest' point, but as this is my opinion, let's just agree to disagree.

 

But I would like to speak a bit about legislation and the law. Even though I did say that people should abide by the law of the land, there should be some common sense applied. After all this is a 'free' country, so that's why we allow Sikh policemen to wear turbans, for Blind people to have dogs where other people's pet's may not be allowed, to allow disabled people to park in accesible places, to allow people to smoke and drink even though it's bad for them, to allow people to live their life how they want and express their religion, as long as it doesn't intefere with others, to keep Sunday as a day of rest etc. And on the same note, if we have Christian schools for the Christians in the country, then is it too much to ask for Muslim schools for muslims? That's the whole point of having a 'free' country right?

 

I believe we should allow parents to teach their children how they see fit, but PERSONALLY i'm not sure if this is a good idea as i'm not sure that segragated schools preapre children for their adult life, where they will have to mix with different cultures.

 

Also, the main cause of rascism is fear of other cultures which comes from not understanding them, this isn't really helped by segragated schools. but end of the day a Christian parent should have the right to send their children to a Christian school (and same for muslims).

 

In conclusion, you can't fight rascism with rascism, and there should be come common sense and consideration when it comes to making laws etc.

:) well said Van. but I wouldn't go as far to say your personal preference is racism ;)

 

Sonix - I also believe that religion should have no bearing on education whatsoever. Be it Christian, Jewish, Muslim. I personally find any deity worship a bit backward and nothing more than a form of control by fear, perpetuated by the fear of death being terminal. Just look at what the promise of 'paradise' does in the middle east. 'Killing in the name of.....' as the lyrics go.

 

Personal things like religion should be kept outwith the education system. I will respect other peoples beliefs as long as they do not attempt to impose them or the politics of them on me. I also refuse to pay my tax pound to expand other peoples religious growth.

 

I also find it a bit retarded that people need a book of myth, whispers & contradictions to tell them how to be decent people. Maybe we're not quite as evolved as I hoped :rolleyes:

Religion is a tough one. When people believe that there is a paradise waiting for them once they leave this plane od existance through a deed for "the greater good" like suicide bombers, there are very little reasoning tools left for common sense and logic. In my personal opinion, religion can often play havoc on ethics and morals.

 

There have been cases where muslim families have murdered there daughters for marrying someone outside of their race/religion. I just cannot for the life of me comprehend this. Talk about brainwashing!

 

I would also like to think that religion will also die out given time. When the world is highly educated and logic prevails. However, there are intellectuals whom have turned to religion in their later life so this kind of counteracts my thinking. The mind boggles.

 

Everyone should really value lifes without thinking about paradise etc. Perhaps we still have a long way to go before this is possible. There's still so much conflict and human misery in the world that it deppresses me too much to think about.

 

I live in hope. Not from my belief in god but my belief in the goodness of mankind which WILL prevail through struggle and strife.

Hmmm.. interesting stuff about religion, that's a whole other subject.

 

I don't think intellect is neccasarily equated with atheism or vice-versa. Personally, i'n not very religious, but in my experience there are people of all intellects who are religous and not religious. The whole point of religion (in my view) is that it's about faith, therefore you should not be able to prove or dis-prove it.

 

I agree that there has been barbaric acts committed in the name of religion, but i get this feeling that if we didn't have religion, then we'd still have those barbaric acts, just for a different reasons (e.g. elitism / rascism / territory / greed). plus there are many other ways a small group of people try to control the masses...

 

But like is said that's a whole other subject.

I agree that there has been barbaric acts committed in the name of religion, but i get this feeling that if we didn't have religion, then we'd still have those barbaric acts, just for a different reasons (e.g. elitism / rascism / territory / greed).

 

Yeah but at least those reasons are tangible. You can't argue with someone who WILLFULLY choses to believe in some BIG INVISIBLE BEARDED GEEZER IN THE SKY! LOL!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

"My imaginary friend is much better than your imaginary friend, and if you don't agree either I will KILL you or you will burn in hell for all eternity! " :tongue: :xxx:

 

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Humans suck.

Hmmm.. interesting stuff about religion, that's a whole other subject.

 

I don't think intellect is neccasarily equated with atheism or vice-versa. Personally,....QUOTE]

 

This is why I am puzzled. Surely intellect would require that there must be reason, ground, proof or evidence that something exists first before it can be accepted?

 

When it comes to faith...well I have faith in myself, family and friends and THAT more than enough for me. Why have faith in an "entity" that you believe exists only by hearsay? Wishfull think perhaps.

 

I do not need holymen/women and books of pure fiction to dictate the way I live my life and teach me right from wrong.

 

Holy people often say when things go wrong that it is the will of god etc etc...boooolocks. If this is true then there is no "free will" everything is set and there's shite you can do to change it.

 

The bible tells that god made man an exact image of himself. Surely, how can he do this? He isn't a physical being and he can appear as any form? But then he is everywhere and knows everything- why didn't he see the serpent coming? And why did he put it there in the first place? It just doesn't equate.

 

That's it. Enough time wasting on a non-entity.

 

[Please god, let me win the jackpot even though I don't play the lottery] :rofl: