Hi,

 

Most people know that I work as a FireFighter and if anybody wants to ask me questions about the strike, feel free.

 

The current state of play with a firefighter is that they clear £46 a day, most of my colleagues want to be able to afford to buy their own home and support their Families without relying on income support. I like many others have to depend upon other forms of income, (hence the reason why I can afford to run more than one car).

 

If anybody wants to, feel free to contribute any wind ups, insults and other distractions to the real issue, LOL, I've got some Hope!!

 

Mark

Hang on here a minute - of course people bang on about the 40% - thats what the bloody FBU have asked for!

 

As regards comparing other public sector jobs.......I quote, and not from the Sun......todays editorial in the Telegraph (a paper not known for adopting the 'Labour' stance):

 

'Unlike many other parts of the public sector, there is certainly no recruitment crisis in the fire service. In fact, there are 40 applications for every vacancy.

One reason for this competition is that firefighters have some of the best job conditions of any public servants. They enjoy gold-plated, guaranteed pensions pensions, something increasingly rare in the private sector. They have a four-day working week, with an archaic shift pattern that allows them to hold other jobs. They enjoy an unparalleled security of employment. Moreover, their union has ferociously protected outdated working practices.

It is a scandal that,ENTIRELY DUE TO FBU INTRANSIGENCE (my capitals), firefighters are not trained in paramedic skills, nor do their engines carry essential medical equipment like defibrallators.'

 

Back over to you guys who think it OK to 'withdraw their labour'........and accept the inevitable consequences........

hmmmmmmm, for those of you that think its unreasonable for them to withdraw their services & put lives at risk, that they are unreasonable for ask such a large pay rise..................................how much would you think they would be worth if you was trapped in a burning building, or need cutting out of your car after a multiple car pile up? a lot more than there getting now, im sure.

 

so what if there are 1000's of people wanting to join - does that mean that they are worth less cos we can replace them with unskilled people wanting to join??

 

it IS unlikely that they will get the full amount anyway, so maybe they get 25%, is that really unreasonable in a job that is obviously VERY underpaid?

 

so what their shifts allow them to do another job out of work hours - who wants to HAVE to do that anyway??????????

 

GOOD LUCK MARK! I really hope you all get what you deserve. decent pay.

..................................how much would you think they would be worth if you was trapped in a burning building, or need cutting out of your car after a multiple car pile up? a lot more than there getting now, im sure.

 

 

 

And quite how is this going to happen if they have 'withdrawn their labour'.....how would YOU feel then if it was YOU?

 

'Oh...good luck to them...I know they deserve the money' - as you are trapped in a burning building etc.

 

Still support the action then?

thats exactly my point!!! if its so easy & there not worth the money - there wont be a problem will there?!?! im sure the green godess crews can handle it, eh!!?? :rolleyes:

 

I tell you what id think if i was in that situation:

 

I wish they got paid that fcuking 40% they wanted

 

strike action is always a last resort, im sure they dont all WANT to do what they are doing. but at some point youve got to take action if you want people to listen.

that certainly seems to have happened, think we all have to agree on that ;)

Hi Kinace,

 

You say I have not answered your questions yet within your posts I find few questions, but a lot of cliched rhetoric, lacking logic and Facts!

 

 

You say that Firefighters are 'Morally Banqrupt', because they are, and you say 'risking people lives', this I find, sickens me.

 

I am a graduate, and Post Graduate, I am also halfway through completing a Masters Degree, I joined the Fire Service as opposed to a definite job stock broking, because I wanted to contribute something back to society, as do many of my colleagues! I am striking because I find that the it morally repugnant that people who want to give something back to society, e.g. FireFighters, are having to raise their Families with Income Support because they qualify for it!

 

So just because there are a lot of people who want to join the fire service, you should take advantage of their good nature and pay them shit money.Nice Morales Mate!

 

The Government cut 30% of Fire aplliances in the last five years in London, this has been accompanied with a 30% RISE IN FIRE DEATHS, in the same period. Are they Morally Banqrupt!

 

 

 

Here's a question to you.

 

Why don't you disclose what you do all day in your office, what you earn and what you do to return something back to the society you live in.

 

I sure hope you don't speed in your Z, because you are risking peoples lives and therefore Morally Banqrupt in your book.

 

You quote from the Torygraph, about our pensions being great, yes they are WE PAY FOR THEM OUT OF OUR WAGES.

 

You also quote that we have unparalleled job security, no we don't. If you have an accident or medical condition that affects your ability to fight fire you have lost your job, whereas most other jobs you be would still be fit to work in them. No you don't get your full pension either, only if you fall ill less than 3 years before you retire!

 

You say Andy Gilchrist is furthering his political ambitions, I don't think he can go to any other job now! Strange though the MP's and Tony Blair must now be Scargalites, since they got a 40% pay rise!

 

You compare FF's to the services, by which I presume you mean Armed services, why?

 

Why not compare them to the Police? They risk their lives and are public servants they are paid a considerable amount more.

 

You say we work a 4 day week, wrong, we work a 42 hour week.

You forget that we work shifts and the working week does not apply. Shifts are 48 hours in total,averaged out over the year it equals to 42 hour week. Normal week workers get to see their families in the evening and spend the nights in their own bed.

In fact 40-50% of Fire Fighters in London cannot afford to live in London and buy in Cheaper areas, they then commute 100's of miles and stay unofficially on the stations, missing from their wives and children 60% of the time, a receipe for divorce!

 

You quote from the Telegraph that FF's are not trained In Paramedical skills.

 

Paramedics and FF's are two sepaprate and professional jobs, requiring a vast amount of training,skills and knowledge. At emergencies all services have distinct and individual roles to fulfill, specialised to them.

 

If you merge these two professional services you are diluting these two professional services and the public will suffer.

 

Remember that if a fire appliance is on a medical call they are committed to that call, so if there is a fire on their area a neighbouring fire engine has to travel two or three times as far, to get there!

 

The Government want to do this to save money, because the Ambulance service is underfunded. I was on the watch that attended the Soho Bomb, there were 3 dead and 15 amputess we waited 15 mins for the First ambulance to turn up.

 

Why not make the Fire service Police Officers as well, we could save a bundle of dough.

We could rig up a wagon with a cell in the back that had a stretcher, a ladder on top and a couple of extinguishers.

We could always ask the villain/casualty to give us a hand putting the ladders up!

 

 

where will this cost cutting end?

 

We had a post a while ago talking about how society is going downhill, one of the reasons is the foundations of the cornerstones are being eroded by people out their only thinking of themselves. That is why education, health and public order are paramount to our overall well being and our future and as soon you start thinking about how much this will cost you have lost definitions for the Quality of Life!

 

 

Gio,

 

Just some pointers, The FF's Poster was wrong, Qualified FF's pay is 21,500 after 4 years and this continues for 15 years, not including payrises.

 

Starting wage is 18-19000 depending on age.

 

I visited a New York Fire Station this September and the guys there told me they are on after 5 years $ 45,000,not including OT, I did not ask about starting wage, they did think my wages were and I quote 'SHIT'

 

 

Mark

Mark - I should know by now "never believe what you read in the newspapers!" ;)

 

I don't question the justness of the cause, I am just deeply worried / cynical about the tactics and rhetoric which are being used.

 

Cheers - Gio

while we are at morality, what about the nurses? Now they certainly dont have lines of people wanting their jobs!

 

Presumably everybody saying give our FFs a whacking big pay rise because they deserve it are also paying plenty taxes and ready to pay even more because its taxpayers who pay public services not the government.

 

I noticed that most people who vote for more taxes to be spent actually dont pay any.

 

I am all for equitable treatment, some kind of indexing and no strike agreement so that wages dont get left behind for years needing this kind of painful catchup situaton. It is just nauseating listening to the "negotiating by media methods" of old 2 jags and his henchmen. There will be a resolution soon and the old improved productivity and revised work proactises will justify the climbdown. Means more fires out per man!

 

And while we are putting the world to rights that prat in government who wants us to pay more tuition fees to get our kids through uni. No more shall the bin man subsidise the doctor she said. So does that mean flat rate taxes too? Society gets the investment back in taxes over and over.

 

Goodwill to all! except goverment - its bloated and inefficient and wastes our money. I'm for having at least 20% redundances there every 6 months! foxes and section 28 really important stuff!

I'm all for paying the people who save our lives a decent living wage. The only reason I am on this site today is because there are bloody hero's out there scraping bikers off the road, and patching them up after accidents (all 14 of mine were coz the other dumb fcuk wasn't looking)

 

At the end of the day I believe that the people who save our LIVES are worth more than the dim bints I have to hire as receptionists (and they get £10/hour for doing bugger all!)

I thnk they deserve it - I mean tube drivers get £31kpa FFS!!!

Right Topless....let's have a few more FACTS shall we?

 

This is a brief response - I will come back at length on the 'points' you make (?).

 

OK...we'll start with the working week shall we...you know the two days and two nights on followed by four days off. Is it not the case....a simple yes or no answer will suffice ... that you can be paid for two nights sleeping? On average how many of your 42 hours are worked....not just being 'available' at the station - I mean working or training.

 

You mentioned at the start of this thread that you had another income...well, do you do another job? What percentage of guys at your station have alternative work? As for the guy that says 'who would want to do that?' - well, a lot of people would like the opportunity to work more hours and earn more money.

Especially if they have four days at a stretch available to do it.

 

Of course you guys have an overtime ban don't you? Unusually it is of the Employees (well, Union Members) choosing isn't it?

Isn't it the case that it has been suggested that full-time Fire-Fighters could work as retained Fire-Fighters during their 'rest days' - for which they would be paid? Of course this would interfere with any alternative employment wouldn't it?

Hasn't the Union also stated that such a ban 'protects current staffing levels'?

 

Right, the pension - 'paid for out of your wages' - um, aren't we forgetting the Employers contribution? You know, the one paid for by people like me - the tax-payer.

Perhaps you would like to tell us all the percentage that is in relation to the employees contribution?

 

Isn't the existing pension arrangement two-thirds of the final salary?

 

How long is it that you have to be in the FFS to qualify for this pension?

 

Isn't it true that staffing levels on night shifts are virtually the same as levels on the day shifts - this, in spite of the fact that call-outs are at a SIGNIFICANTLY lower level?

 

 

In your piece about the New York fire-men you surprisingly forgot to mention the fact that their basic is in fact LESS than their UK counter-part. They just happen to earn a lot more because they have adopted more modern working practices.

 

Isn't it true that the FBU opposes the introduction of more 'modern working practices' because it is concerned with a reduction in staffing levels?

 

As for the bit about sending a fire appliance on an accident emergency because they have a paramedic on board - well, it is distortion of reality of the very first order. Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that there will be no ambulances?

 

The point about paramedics is this - as the FFS are so often FIRST on the scene wouldn't it make sense for at least one of them to be a trained paramedic? You actually make the point convincingly yourself...what was it, ten minutes that you were waiting for the first ambulance to arrive?

 

 

 

You have suggested that the Sun is against you.....the Telegraph is against you....quite which paper is it that supports your cause?

Quite why the tory press would want to condemn your actions and not the present Government, well, that's an interesting one surely?

 

Regarding Andy Gilchrist having 'nowhere to go' - what was that I said about learning a lesson from history? Remind me - just where was it Arthur Scargill went? Answer - HE didn't go anywhere - he had his Union position didn't he? He has recently retired and been given a 'life' consultancy position....now what exactly was it that he achieved for his members?

 

I'm more than happy to debate this topic at length - and as for your accusation of me using 'cliches' it would appear that you are either guilty of a level of mis-information or you don't seem to know what's going on. There's an awful lot that you've left out of your replies.

 

 

When you have a job sector where people are 'queueing to get in' and hardly anybody ever leaves and they complain about how poorly paid they are something doesn't quite add up.

 

 

You said why don't I compare the FFS to the police - good idea. They are not allowed to strike are they? They don't get paid while they sleep either. They also tend not to have other employment.

What about nurses - how come people have been leaving in droves? Are they any less comitted than people in the FFS?

 

As I said...I believe the FFS should get an increase. I also believe that it should not - well, it will not - be 40%.

I also strongly believe that striking is wrong.

 

To be perfectly honest the more I look at the FFS and it's out-moded working practices (protectionism anyone? Remember Dock workers and the print unions?) the less sympathy I have for your case.

 

I await your replies with interest...

Ok,

 

 

Wrong, We work two days, two nights, THREE DAYS OFF.

 

You can POTENTIALLY sleep between, 2400 hrs and 0630, which 95% of the time is interrupted by multiple call outs, but as I say, you don't get a nights rest, the prospect of meeting an inferno or someone dying does not make a good precursor for a deep sleep.

 

We are at work all the time, have you ever worked as if your own life or someone elses depends upon it? We do, you work harder than you can ever imagine, to try and rescue an adult or child, do you know what the stress is like realising that you can go on a call like that, do you really think we can sleep properly with that hanging over our heads?

 

We work all the time, apart from what you might define as 'sleep' on a station, so that would be 13 hours away from 48 hour tour of duty!

 

We only have three days at a stretch to work, and yes you do have an oppurtunity to do extra work.

 

Why don't you go and work nights Kinace?

 

A lot of FF's finish their last night shift and go straight out to work because they cannot support their families on their income! I do have another income, what else would you like to know about this and for what purpose?Probably 70-80 % of FF's have to work Part time to support their families.

 

WRONG There is no ban on Full Time FF's working as retained FF's, I know several who do?

 

On one point you are right so far, the Union does ban OT but the FF's want to work OT and are telling the union they want to engage this option!

 

The employers contribution to the Pension scheme is marginally higher than a Private company this is to compensate for the fact that a FF is no longer fit for Fire Fighting duties past the age of 55.

And of course FF's are tax payers to!

 

 

ONLY after 30 years continous service a FF's pension is two thirds of his final salary!

 

Wrong we have never been asked to reduce our staffing levels at night, I presume this is what you are implying?

 

In my opinion, you would be stupid to do so, more fire deaths occur at night. The reason being fires are undiscovered at night when people are asleep, passing people are not out as much and can't see the smoke issuing from the building because it does not show against the night sky!

 

No NY FF's basic is not less than UK's, before OT they earn $45k a year, no they have not modernised the service. Their shift system is two days on i.e. 48 hours, SIX DAYS OFF! If that is modernisation, I'll vote for it. They are in fact considering industrial action soon, for a payrise!

 

The union is not opposed to Modern working practices, that is a separate issue from our current pay dipute we have called. The review we commisioned decided that under our current working practices we are worth 30k. We will discuss working practices as a separate and different issue!

 

 

Wrong. That are the current proposals, that a Fire Appliance will go on a medical call, when there are no ambulances readily available.

6 months ago a man entered our station with severe chest pains we contacted the ambulance service and they replied they had no ambulance available! We ended up taking him to hospital on the back of a fire truck!

 

That is the current state of play, wake up!

 

Ok the police are often first on the scene of a stabbing, attack, terrorist attack, why not make them paramedics?

If you had a properly funded ambulance service you would not be asking this question!

 

We ride most of the time with 4 guys on a fire appliance, it takes the minimum of three/four to put a ladder up, two guys then get into BA to put the fire out, one guy operates the pump for the hose, one guy is in control of the incident and makes radio messages for further help and assistance. Who will be the paramedic?

 

The reason we are usually first on the scene is because FF's have protected safe fire appliance levels via their union! If we were as poorly funded as the ambulance service, then we might not have been available!

 

 

Strange the Tory press critcising Union action!

All the rest are up the arses of New Labour since it is the only political party remaining!

 

 

You say I have left a lot out of my replies, please tell me what, OH I apologise i have only had 40 odd people asking me questions!

 

I believe I have now answered every point you have put to me?

And it appears the you are now the mine of misinformation, because you shouldn't believe what you read in the papers?

 

You say people are queing up to get in, they hardly leave and they complain about what they are getting paid?

Maybe they are a kind of people you don't comprehend, the ones that like helping people, the ones that want to give something back, the ones who enjoy working as a team and having a distinct sense of purpose in their life!

 

 

So you believe striking is wrong, what action should we take, maybe we should tickle Tony Blair until he gives the less money in a pay rise than he gave himself this year.

 

 

You say I have not answered your questions, YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED MINE!

 

I repeat why don't you tell me:

 

What you do for a living?

 

How much you earn?

 

What you do to give something back to society?

 

 

Mark

What do I do for a living? Relevance please.........if you really want to go down that road I will gladly...but are you really sure?

Do you view everyone that is not a firefighter as some lesser being? Really, your reasons for taking the job have absolutely no bearing on this discussion....they are your reasons, pure and simple. The evidence is that if you didn't take the job there are plenty of other people that would have done quite glady. Maybe they are all driven by the same altruistic principles?

 

The best thing that I can give to any community is to treat other people the way I would wish to be treated.

 

This isn't a personal thing....I'm entitled to my views on your dispute, you posted the initial thread and I am responding to it. Why make it personal?

 

You see I have a problem with a number of the points - on the one hand you provide an invaluable service and risk your lives protecting the public (absolutely no argument there) - but, on the other hand the withdrawal of your services doesn't put people at risk....how does that work then?

 

Firefighters....'They know the consequences of a fire service strike better than anybody else.' I wonder what consequences they can be referring to there? Oh, it's from the FBU site by the way....the same site that mentions the four days off...guess they must have that wrong then, eh?

 

S'funny your figure of $45k before overtime for a New York fireman.....their own web site says that it's $32k. Easy mistake to make I guess.

 

That would be the same New York Fire Department that uses paramedics and EMT's (Emergency Medical Teams) on their teams....that's modernisation for you.

 

 

Looks like there is talk of scrapping the planned eight day strike....restarting negotiations at the level of around 16% spread over three years. That's close to 40% then isn't it?

Oh, and one of the conditions is that in future some of the retirees from the Fire Service will not be replaced....now are you sure that the current manning levels are about right?

 

Of course that is information that I've read - it could well be mis-information, but we'll wait and see shall we? We'll also see what happens to your working practices over the next few years.

 

Keep it coming.......

I didnt say "who wants to do that" about having another job,

 

I said "who wants to HAVE to do that"

 

big difference imo.

We all appreciate what a good job Firemen(fighters?) do(when they're not striking:D)But they aren't the only one's giving to society.Anyone in a job,raising a well adjusted ;) family and paying taxes, is contributing to society.

A multi skilled Police officer is more likely to be killed in the line of duty than a fireman.If you work on the M40 as an AA or RAC patrolman you are putting yourself in a very dangerous position, in order to help people..etc..etc...

Let's just hope the Firemen come to an agreement soon and so prevent another dangerous,"harmful to society" strike.

Originally posted by Kinace and Answered by Topless

What do I do for a living? Relevance please.........if you really want to go down that road I will gladly...but are you really sure?

 

Well it seems you want to pass judgement en mass on my carreer, colleagues and pay!

 

 

Do you view everyone that is not a firefighter as some lesser being?

 

When have I ever implied that?

 

This isn't a personal thing....I'm entitled to my views on your dispute, you posted the initial thread and I am responding to it. Why make it personal?

 

You have accussed FF's of Moral Banqruptcy, yes or no, that seems a little personal to someone who works as a FF.

 

 

I am not making it personal, I am giving you the facts as opposed to what you read in the media?

 

You see I have a problem with a number of the points - on the one hand you provide an invaluable service and risk your lives protecting the public (absolutely no argument there) - but, on the other hand the withdrawal of your services doesn't put people at risk....how does that work then?

 

If we are an invaluable resource, then why doesn't the government remove our right to strike, like the Police! In law it is the Governments responsibilty to provide fire cover, why don't they change the Law?

Because they would have to raise our pay to introduce such a clause.

You cannot compare us to the army on this either, the services workforce is given benefits the FF's never have, i.e.

Housing, food, cheap goods, tax benefits,no commuting.

 

Firefighters....'They know the consequences of a fire service strike better than anybody else.' I wonder what consequences they can be referring to there?

 

Have I ever disputed that there could be consequences from our strike?

 

Oh, it's from the FBU site by the way....the same site that mentions the four days off...guess they must have that wrong then, eh?

 

Can you give me the exact link from which you got that information, as the union website is huge, I will email them and inform them of this typo.

 

S'funny your figure of $45k before overtime for a New York fireman.....their own web site says that it's $32k. Easy mistake to make I guess.

 

Wrong, it states 32k is the starting salary plus $6500 in other pay, after 4 to 5 years their basic becomes $45k.

A uk FF starts on 18-19k depending on age, going up to 21,500 after 4 years if they qualify!

 

 

That would be the same New York Fire Department that uses paramedics and EMT's (Emergency Medical Teams) on their teams....that's modernisation for you.

 

Wrong, the NYFD is the name under which their ambulance service operates!

 

Looks like there is talk of scrapping the planned eight day strike....restarting negotiations at the level of around 16% spread over three years. That's close to 40% then isn't it?

 

16%is the starting negotiation level, the one the employers wanted to give us but the governemnt refused, hence the stand off!

 

 

Oh, and one of the conditions is that in future some of the retirees from the Fire Service will not be replaced....now are you sure that the current manning levels are about right?

 

Less fireman = bigger and better fires= more deaths and injury

 

I have no beef about manning levels being cut, what i have do have a beef about is the resulting deaths and injury that will result from it. Take the current evidence this year from Londons 'experiment'

 

Of course that is information that I've read - it could well be mis-information, but we'll wait and see shall we? We'll also see what happens to your working practices over the next few years.

 

Our working practices will change as they have been constantly over the past!

 

Keep it coming.......

 

 

I suppose keep it coming is not a personal remark?

You clearly do not understand the English language......you also have trouble gettting the facts right from your own f**king Fire Service!!

 

Almost EVERY answer you have given is contradicted by your own unions site....I honestly can't be arsed to list ALL the 'errors' you appear to have made. I can access your Unions sites and read for myself - anyone else interested enough can do the same. I don't know whether you deliberately don't provide the right answer or whether you are just incapable of doing it - yes OK, let it be personal, thats what you want.

 

Interesting to note that one of your Union leaders (The Retained Firefighters Union) says that the use of defibrallators on appliances could save 15,000 lives a year. Now I would think he knows what he is talking about.....you still reckon it's not viable?

 

Interestingly enough he also mentioned that full-time Firefighters are banned from working as retained firemen after they sign off from their shift. He reckons that it would be a good idea for them to work part-time - you informed me that this was already happening. Guess one of you got it wrong...again....wonder which one?

 

What do I do in the office all day?......Well, I don't have an office

as such. I tend to work at client premises....as a consultant. I help to improve the efficiency of their business. They tend to be multi-national companies (although I did do an extensive project for one of the Major Charities which should see a LARGE increase in their income - and I mean Millions) and yes, the money isn't at all bad.

 

You see, I was pissed off with my position and income so I got off my ass and did something positive about it.

 

If your job/pay combo is so bad then go do something else.

 

 

And don't give me that 'putting something back into the community' crock of shit - that's the same community that you are prepared to see endangered to satifsy your greed. Clear enough?

 

You said my comments sickened you - well at least we have one thing in common.

 

Oh - and here's something that you probably can't comprehend - I will be visiting the Far East next year to do some charitable fund raising...and I won't be getting paid for it!! See, if I 'put something into a community' I don't expect to be paid for it. I actually do it at a cost to myself......can you follow that concept?

 

 

 

The one good thing that will come from the FFS action is that your service WILL be modernised - you WILL end up with defibrillators -and your staffing levels WILL be cut.....like I said 'wait and see'. Want a wager on it?

Sounds like you've got some personal Issues!

 

LOL

 

Mark

Originally posted by kinace

I will be visiting the Far East next year to do some charitable fund raising...and I won't be getting paid for it

 

 

Yeah have you set up your own branch of the THAI LADYBOY RELIEF FUND?

 

Or have you got to take your Missus back, to get her Marraige licence restamped, or you trading her in for a fresher model?????????

 

 

 

ROFLMAO;) :D :D :D :D :eek:

Nice Govt that WE elected eh?

 

Now trying to sway public opinion by saying that the Armed Forces are missing out out on valuable training for future confrontation a.k.a. Iraq!/Middle East!!!!

 

My arguement is that the forces are trained for that from DAY 1 out of basic training...so fcuk that right off!

 

Kin-Ache you really do have some views my fellow poster!

 

I admire Mark for sticking his neck out and supporting his living here. Why? God knows????

 

Most of the idiots on this board think their cars are the best on the planet...LMFAO :D

 

I rest my case! :D

Originally posted by Timmy_Turbo

Most of the idiots on this board think their cars are the best on the planet...LMFAO :D

 

I rest my case! :D

 

You hit the nail on the head, there my friend:D

Originally posted by Timmy_Turbo

Most of the idiots on this board think their cars are the best on the planet...LMFAO :D

 

that should read :-

 

Most of the idiots on any car board think their cars are the best on the planet...

 

because people on our board are no different to people on any other board when it comes to pride and favouritism towards their own car

Originally posted by markstevens

Of course, if all of the Firemen were imigants they would get £40k pa.

And they wouldnt even have to speak English.

I just wonder how bad this country will get before we do something about it and kick out all of the stupid politians.....

Revolution anyone?

 

ROFLMAO !! Too right !:D

Originally posted by Gio

 

It's true that withdrawing cover increases the risk to people but if people were more careful, there wouldn't be the risk in the first place.

 

What about accidents ?! Are you saying ALL fires are due to stupdidity ?:confused:

Originally posted by Gio

 

 

 

Oh and one last thing, I am wrinkly enough to remember the last a Labour government got into a battle with the unions. This led to 19 years of Tory misrule - schools funding slashed, NHS deeper in the mire, no infrastructure spending, crap roads and - to nick another thread - a society where the youngsters have grown up with the Thatcherite message of greed, look out for No1, no respect for others etc etc.

 

 

 

Well said! ;)