From Indian_zx's thread it appears that there are a few people that understand boilers and plumbing systems on here! Which is alot more than can be said for me!

 

Basically I want to replace the nasty bathroom thats in my house. Its a 3 bed semi, it has gas central heating/hot water at the moment. Its an old Baxi conventional boiler that has a hot water tank in the bathroom and two header tanks in the loft, a big one (im not entirely sure what for, cold water of course, but is that to supply the hot water tank with cold or the cold water taps in the house?) and a small one for the heating system. (I think)

 

Now it all works fine, its just pretty old and inefficient.

 

The pipework to the radiators is 10mm i believe, is all fairly well fitted and in good condition, as are the radiators. Obviously the main feeds along the landing and between floors etc are larger.

 

What I want to do is get rid of the hot water tank from the bathroom so I can get the space from the cupboard. Now that either means getting rid or moving it.

 

I also want a proper shower, now I had wanted it to be fed from the boiler (i.e not electric as it is at the moment) but to do that without having a combi boiler I assume that means the hot water tank has to be higher than the shower - in the loft basically.

 

So I'm looking for my options:

 

A: Get rid of tank, replace with a new combi boiler job done

B: Move tank to the loft and keep the existing boiler until it goes wrong

C: Move tank to the loft and replace with a new conventional boiler

D: Anything else?

 

The issue I have is that I like the idea of a combi boiler, hot water on demand and very efficient but pretty much everyone I speak to says they don't like their combi, its not reliable, not as good etc as a conventional system.

I do want to get rid of the tank though but I dont mind it being in the loft, is that feasable? Would it cost as much to move the tank than to replace the boiler?

Had the same as you and then renewed last year went for the same system [boiler and heater] new boiler is a vaillent only reson why I kept my tank was if it breaks down at any time I will still have hot water like the idea of tank in the loft did not know you could do that

It does sound as if your system is working perfectly and your only issue is the tank that is in your bathroom, a cupboard I take it where you can aire your clothers, towels, etc.

My old property as the same as you and worked fine, airing cupboard was off the landing though, until something goes wrong why not continue as you are?

Perhaps have a look again in the spring.

Your other issue is your electric shower, you probably need a better one, 9.5kw minimum, these work fine and will always work and are not reliant on in your case having a full tank of hot water, as of course they only need a cold feed :wink:

It does sound as if your system is working perfectly and your only issue is the tank that is in your bathroom, a cupboard I take it where you can aire your clothers, towels, etc.

My old property as the same as you and worked fine, airing cupboard was off the landing though, until something goes wrong why not continue as you are?

Perhaps have a look again in the spring.

Your other issue is your electric shower, you probably need a better one, 9.5kw minimum, these work fine and will always work and are not reliant on in your case having a full tank of hot water, as of course they only need a cold feed :wink:

 

Thats the problem... lol it does work fairly well its just not what I want. I want to make it a nice bathroom, at the moment its absolutly awful. Its chocolate brown with yellow walls... Well im on with painting the yellow magnolia but I cant do anything about a brown bathroom suite. I also want to knock the seperate loo and bathroom together to make a nice modern bathroom. Its all a future project but the boiler/hot water situation needs to be fettled first.

 

The only reason I say about the hot water tank in the loft is because the hot water tank at my parents house is up there so it doesnt clutter the bathroom. But that was done when the house was extended the first time and dad put it up there - when I was about 7 so 17 years ago or something daft. But thats a pressurised heating circuit with an oil fired boiler so totally different to what I have.

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Your other issue is your electric shower, you probably need a better one, 9.5kw minimum, these work fine and will always work and are not reliant on in your case having a full tank of hot water, as of course they only need a cold feed :wink:

 

9.5kw shower requires a 10mm cable, most shower insalations apart from recent builds only have a 6mm cable installed, you had better check befor you start wireing in a 9.5kw shower. If the breaker is only a 32amp you will need to upgardethe whole electrical system. this will now involve PART P regs

 

 

Allan

get shot and get a combi, i much prefer a combi, get a decent brand like valiant and you shouldnt have any prob's

 

then go to ebay and get a mira combiflow shower that run's off the combi, great pressure, good valve and at £125 delivered for a brand new unit you cant go wrong, they are about £340 from plumbing supplier's

 

im opting for an electrical fire incase the boiler go's off and they are much more efficant now, atleast i would have some background heat

9.5kw shower requires a 10mm cable, most shower insalations apart from recent builds only have a 6mm cable installed, you had better check befor you start wireing in a 9.5kw shower. If the breaker is only a 32amp you will need to upgardethe whole electrical system. this will now involve PART P regs

 

 

Allan

 

This is what I was affraid of, problem is its just a total pain to get a decent electric shower. Its got something pathetic at the moment, on what looks like 30amp cooker cable, im not sure what "size" cable that is.

 

get shot and get a combi, i much prefer a combi, get a decent brand like valiant and you shouldnt have any prob's

 

then go to ebay and get a mira combiflow shower that run's off the combi, great pressure, good valve and at £125 delivered for a brand new unit you cant go wrong, they are about £340 from plumbing supplier's

 

im opting for an electrical fire incase the boiler go's off and they are much more efficant now, atleast i would have some background heat

 

Well I was hoping a combi would suit me better, I neglected to mention but I dont spend that much time at home with my work etc im away most of the week quite often so didnt want a huge amount of hot water just sitting there in a tank wasting money etc.

 

Im fitting a wood burner into the front room so that will provide most of the heating for the house im hoping. Mainly as it'll be almost free and with double glazing and good insulation should nicely cook the house - i,e meaning the heating has to do knack all!

definately go for combi then, would suit your need's, i dont see the point in heating a full cylinder of water just for the odd shower

had a combi for 8 year Chris never failed me once ....had teh drain line freeze once which made the combi boiler stop working last year during the real cold spell ..but not the boilers fault ,,..thawed out the drain line and up she fired ....it runs all teh heating and hot water and shower upstairs and down and bath rooms upstairs and down ..no loss of pressure. trick is to oversize the boiler for your requirements .....mine is for a bed and breakfast establishment ...love it !!

Steve hit the nail on the head there oversize is the key when changing to a combi, I can tell you after changing to a combi you will wonder why you did not swap it out years ago.Instant hot water that is at main water pressure so showers are very powerful and will out perform an electric shower easily.

 

All boilers now have adhere to effeciency regs and a modern condensing combi is about as good as its gets these days, recovering lost heat from the flue via a second heat exchanger, non condensing boilers don`t stand a chance.

 

Within the trade there are always favourites and getting a true recomendation can be difficult as the advise may be to go with a certain boiler type as its the one they get the best deal on. As always ask as many people as you can what type they have and you will get an end user view then, me I favour Baxi condensing combi`s due to their technical merits, not always the trade choice though due to unfavourable trade prices but parts and tech help desk is first class.

 

Oh and dont get ripped off by smart talking reps, changing the boiler over is very straight forward and no new pipes need installing to the hot taps, its all already there, once the old hot water cylinder is removed its a case of blanking some pipes and reconnecting some a different way around.

 

As far as room stats, let your combi run on the stat built into it, it then regulates the boiler gas valve modulation based on the return water temp, unlike a room stat which can have the boiler swithing on / off too much and is basing this on the temp in one room only.

 

Jeff TT

Edited September 24, 201114 yr by JeffTT

baxi's are great a very good mid market boiler and we have fitted load's over the year's, but the rolls royce of boiler's at the moment seem to be vailiant, they have stainless heat exchanger and it apperently keep's the heat in rather than waste it like copper excahnges do

 

i would fit a baxi, great run of a mill boiler and highly rated

baxi's are great a very good mid market boiler and we have fitted load's over the year's, but the rolls royce of boiler's at the moment seem to be vailiant, they have stainless heat exchanger and it apperently keep's the heat in rather than waste it like copper excahnges do

 

i would fit a baxi, great run of a mill boiler and highly rated

 

Yes Vailliant have a top long term rep and the stainless steel heat exchanger is quite unique, the Baxi I like for its high flow rate on the hot water which comes into its own when used for showers and the double gas valve modulation and built in pump maintenance run timer which stores pump run times and when the boiler is used less in the summer runs the pump for a minute at set intervals (usually in the middle of the night )to prevent pump seizure.

 

Jeff TT

one thing i always say is "once a month, out your heating in for ten min's", just make's sure it work's when winter come's

 

ive done a thread on here about checking your boiler before winter comes

one thing i always say is "once a month, out your heating in for ten min's", just make's sure it work's when winter come's

 

ive done a thread on here about checking your boiler before winter comes

 

'Once a month' and 'ten mins, I put my boiler to use everyday but only for a minute though!!!

 

Yes another boiler/wife gag/post :whistling:

just bear in mind if you go for a combi and one day it breaks down, you wont have heating or hot water... ;)

The water pressure you get from a conventional hot water system is determined by the height of the header tank in the loft, not by the height of the hot water cylinder in the airing cupboard. To get better hot water pressure you need to move the header tank as high as possible in the loft. The hot water header tank will usually be the larger of the two in the loft.

 

Providing you have a modern lagged hot water cylinder, the losses from it are minimal. In the region of £30 per year.

 

IMO it's not worth swapping a good boiler for a combi on the grounds of savings. If you desperately want rid of the cylinder its probably worth swapping to a combi.

 

Decent quality combi boilers are reliable these days. I fitted my vailant 6 years ago and haven't had a single problem with it.

 

You could replace the electric shower with a power shower, which uses the hot water from the heating system and retain your existing system. Power showers draw a minimal current, I think in the region of 200w. Your existing cable would be plenty for this.

 

Just a few things to consider.

just bear in mind if you go for a combi and one day it breaks down, you wont have heating or hot water... ;)

 

But how is that different to a conventional boiler?! lol If that breaks down I wouldnt have hot water or heating....! Apart from the log burner and kettle! I know with an electric shower. I suppose there is an immersion heater in the hot water tank but god knows if that works in this place, I wouldnt dare try it tbh!

 

The water pressure you get from a conventional hot water system is determined by the height of the header tank in the loft, not by the height of the hot water cylinder in the airing cupboard. To get better hot water pressure you need to move the header tank as high as possible in the loft. The hot water header tank will usually be the larger of the two in the loft.

 

Providing you have a modern lagged hot water cylinder, the losses from it are minimal. In the region of £30 per year.

 

IMO it's not worth swapping a good boiler for a combi on the grounds of savings. If you desperately want rid of the cylinder its probably worth swapping to a combi.

 

Decent quality combi boilers are reliable these days. I fitted my vailant 6 years ago and haven't had a single problem with it.

 

You could replace the electric shower with a power shower, which uses the hot water from the heating system and retain your existing system. Power showers draw a minimal current, I think in the region of 200w. Your existing cable would be plenty for this.

 

Just a few things to consider.

 

Thats very interesting, so is there a reason why I couldnt move the hot water tank into the loft? The boiler I have is old and inefficient - I also want rid of the airing cupboard, im not bothered about having a tank if I can find a new home for it. What I dont wnat to do is spend a few hundred having it moved for the boiler to fail in a couple of months and then have to replace it with a combi boiler when I may as well have just done that in the first place.

You can move the cylinder to the loft providing you're able to get the header tank higher than it. If you're paying someone else to do the work, you might be better just replacing the boiler with a combi. As you say, you could put the cost of moving the cylinder towards a new boiler.

 

Another thing to consider though, is the payback on a new boiler. Say you end up with a 20 percent increase in efficiency over your old boiler. On a £50 per month heating bill thats £10 per month saving. A saving of £120 per year will take many years to cover the new boiler cost.